Paul Arnesen
Hi there. Welcome back to the Working With Us podcast. My name is Paul Arnison, and this is an episode I've been really looking forward to show to you and for you to listen to because we are going to go to one of my absolute favorite countries in the world, New Zealand. So back in the day, this is where I studied for my bachelor's degree. So I lived there for almost four years and I had a time of my life. In this episode, I'm joined by Shireen Chua, who calls herself Cultural Alchemist. And honestly, I think that's the perfect description for her work. So let me tell you a little bit about Shirine. So she has spent years now helping people and organizations navigate the complexities of cultural diversity and inclusion. She is the Director of Third Culture Solutions, where she coaches leaders, builds into cultural intelligence, and helps teams thrive in today's globalized world. She has a PhD in organizational leadership and a deep passion for translating research into practical tools. So she knows exactly how to turn culture challenges into opportunities. In the episode, we look into the New Zealand culture, obviously, starting with something that you might already know quite a lot about, or at least you've heard about, and that's the All Blacks, namely the rugby team, the famous rugby team and their haka, their warrior dance they do before every game.
And we're going to explore what makes the Kiwi culture so unique. From the Maori traditions and their communal values to the more individualistic Anglo-Saxon influences, we talk about how these two cultures coexist and shape how the New Zealand workplaces have become. Shirine also shares some fascinating insights into the diversity of New Zealand, how Oakland actually is the home to more than 200 ethnicities, and what this means for how people in New Zealand work together. So whether you're curious about Kiwi ingenuity, fascinated by New Zealand's history, or just looking for advice on building more inclusive teams, this episode is packed with insights. And as always, look at the show notes that you will find in the description of this episode. Either you're listening to this podcast or you're seeing it on YouTube, you'll find all the links in the description. Also, ways to connect with Shirine and to follow the podcast. So without further ado, let's get started.
Paul Arnesen
Hey, Shireen. How are you today? So nice to see you. How are you?
Shireen Chua
Kia Ora, Paul. Nice to see you, too. Good evening from Aotearoa, New Zealand. I'm doing really well.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah, it's the evening for you and a morning for me here. That's the nature of speaking to someone on the other side of the world for me, at least.
Shireen Chua
I'm just about finished my day.
Paul Arnesen
So Well, I'm very grateful that you took the time this evening to talk to me about the New Zealand culture of professionals and how it is to work with someone from New Zealand, the Kiwis that is commonly known as outside. But I wanted to start with something that everyone has heard about New Zealand in some sense, probably have heard about, and that's the All Blacks. The All Blacks, the famous rugby team, they have the war dance, the haka before the game, and I think everybody knows about that. Maybe for a lot of people, they see New Zealand, the first thing that comes to mind is the All Black. Can you tell us a little bit about the All Blacks and the significance of All Blacks in New Zealand in general?
Shireen Chua
Well, the All Blacks are our national rugby team. In New Zealand, rugby is pretty much our national sport. Maybe not so much in Europe, but in New Zealand, that is probably what every young boy and even young girl now aspires to want to become when they grow up, if they're any good at this. It's been a rich journey. The sport aspect has been roller coaster, if you've been following the journeys. But we've had several chances to win the World Cup, and that has a lot of national pride. Now, the haka, which you all see and most people have heard, is a fascinating and really important part of the old Black culture, but it was gifted to them by the Māori, the indigenous people of New Zealand. There's been a whole range of either the celebration of culture, but there's also been some misappropriation of culture. It just shows you that culture is such a rich but also polarizing conversation. It's really interesting to talk to you today about that. But the All Blacks, they play a rugby game that's oval shape, if no one has seen that. We play that locally, professionally, as well as nationally.
Shireen Chua
What's been very exciting is that the women's rugby team won the World Cup. Not last year, the year before that, I think. That was amazing. There's been a rise of women's sport as well that starting to supersede the crowds in the rugby games, the men ones.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah. I didn't say that, but I actually used to live in New Zealand. I started in New Zealand, so I was there for almost four years. What I saw with the All Blacks, it is a religion in many ways in terms of the following it has and the importance it has in everything. When the World Cup is on or an important game is on, it's always people. I guess if If it's a World Cup now that was in France, that during the time the games were played, there was no one. If you tried to go to an office or whatever, it was closed. It would be something like that.
Shireen Chua
It's primarily rugby, but I think we are a sporting country, and sport plays a significant part of being in New Zealand at the moment. It's summer, so there's been some cricket going on. Last summer was the Americas Cup sailing. So sport seems to be a really part of New Zealand culture in different ways. And it's also a unified thing. It draws everyone together for good. But also, I guess, when we lose, I think sometimes we might be sore losers.
Paul Arnesen
I think that is a trait of a small nation. I'm Norwegian myself, and we are not that many. I think, one million more. I think five and a half million that lives there and very passionate about sports. If it's a loss, it's a national morning.
Shireen Chua
We are just over 5 million as well.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah, we got past that now. Okay.
Shireen Chua
And Auckland is probably a million plus. That's our largest city. For anyone in Europe listening, you You probably think this is a village.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah. No, Auckland is- Diverse.
Shireen Chua
Very super diverse.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah. And that's where I lived as well. So I have a lot of good memories from New Zealand and Auckland, obviously, because I saw where I spent most of my time as a student. And we can get into many things of my observations there later in this conversation. But I wanted to also just now go on to talk a little bit about the The culture of New Zealand, especially when you think about what the textbooks up through the years and studies and research that has been done about where a a typical Kiwi professionals come from. Maybe you should also mention where the name Kiwi comes from as well. What's the significance of that? Because I think a lot of people that are listening to that that maybe never been to New Zealand have probably met someone who says, I'm a Kiwi. Yes. But you mentioned something to me just before we started this conversation about the diaspora of New Zealanders.
Shireen Chua
We named Kiwi after a really small, flightless bird. Google them and it's got really big feet and a very long beak and no wings, so it can't fly. It's a nocturnal creature. Whenever we talk about being Kiwis, that's are unique to New Zealand. And wherever the Kiwis are found in the world, I think they come from here. Anyway, in different parts of the world, when they talk about Kiwis, They probably mean the kiwi fruit as well. And some people are like, Oh, we eat kiwis. And I think I remember some Americans talk about kiwis being kiwi fruit. And so when they said, Oh, we love eating kiwi. And we're like, No, you cannot. Not eat our national bird because it's not. This is the power of culture and language and meaning. Kiwi can mean a bird, can mean a New Zealander, or can mean a fruit, which is the kiwi fruit, which did not actually originate here. I think it's also called the Chinese Gooseberry, but we do export a lot of kiwi fruit to the world as well. But yes, New Zealand is small, but we are so super diverse, similar to cities like Toronto and Melbourne.
Shireen Chua
But because we're so small, in a city of one million, I think the last time at the census, they talked about having about 200 different nationalities or ethnicities, and 160 languages spoken, and a million people plus. So quite dense. Where I live, up the I remember seeing a picture in the newspaper, maybe about five years ago, of a high school, the most diverse high school. It was just a sea of a global village. What is a Kiwi? I am a Kiwi. I've lived here 36 years, but I'm actually Malaysian-born, so I often describe myself as a Malaysian-born Chinese Kiwi. We are becoming Very diverse in our globalization. So along with that, whether it's in New Zealand or anywhere in the world, wherever you travel, you're taking values with you, your worldviews. So this is why it's the richest, but also the most polarizing time for us to be understanding this whole culture and what I talk about the cultural agility. How do you learn to work together? How do you learn to go deeper in labels, stereotypes and what some of the old textbooks say, which may no longer be so relevant.
Paul Arnesen
No, that's also one of the reasons why I started this podcast in the first place. Old learning that I had, all my education that came actually from New Zealand about business and culture, at least, was outdated when I started reading newer literature. There was a gap there in my learning, and that's why I wanted to speak to someone like yourself that can explain better to the listener what it actually means to be from somewhere, at least from your country, or to be a kiwi and everything. But I think that if you also look at the historical context, we have to also acknowledge, obviously, that New Zealand is a Anglo-Saxon country, was explorers that came in there many, many years ago and settled down in New Zealand. I don't remember the first one was it James Cook or something? But there was a lot of history there. With settlements. But what they met when they came to New Zealand was, as you mentioned earlier, the Māori people, the indigenous tribe that was already living there. I know, obviously, from historical learning about the history of New Zealand, that that's been a conflict that's been going on for many years.
Paul Arnesen
But also just to mention that from the outset, I think it's interesting to see how the, what you call the, is it The Kea, the one side of the Kiwi and then the Maori culture merging together or trying to at least merge together in some sense, because you have on one side, the individualistic Anglo-Saxon culture, and then you have the communal collective Maori culture. I was also reading up on this before this conversation, and I was thinking, it's an interesting way of looking at There are two cultures that is very opposite sides that are trying to live together and merge together. Can you say anything about that? In terms of how maybe if you bunch Anglo-Saxon culture together, it's very easy to say, Oh, the New Zealanders or the Kivis are probably all the British or the Americans because they're all Anglo-Saxons.
Shireen Chua
But they're not. But they're not. I think the thing that when you said, Oh, we're an Anglo-Saxon country, I'm like, Oh, they Because I think first and foremost, the Māori and the Māori oris came, and they were the first. They're the indigenous people here way more than when Eil Tasman was the first one that came and then Cook. Tasman was, yes. The treaty is our founding document, and there's a whole lot more detail which I won't go into, but there was a Declaration of Independence that was signed before. The treaty gives right for this partnership to take place. The tribes, the chiefs of Mali welcomed Hobson and the relationship with the Queen, thinking they were equals. One of the fascinating things is, from my understanding of it, is that there was a deep misunderstanding of the treaty because one was an oral culture, so made to sign something in a written culture. And so what they heard and intended and what was meant. And you have to remember, in 1840, words of sovereignty, which the British were talking about, looked and was understood very differently in culture. So the misunderstandings have continued. And And underpinning that, too, was a lot of settler greed, wanting land in a new tomorrow.
Shireen Chua
But the founders, the people that wanted this treaty was to make this place flourish for both. And so when we often talk about the treaty, Tangata Fenoa is the people of the land, the indigenous, and it is an intercultural relationship with Tangata Tiriti. Tangata Tiriti is not just the Pākehās, or Pākehā is everyone that is not Māori. Some would react and say, Oh, that's an offensive word. No, they're just saying, This is us and this is you, but together we become we. There's been a real journey along the way. There's been a lot of, I guess, misunderstanding. Also out of that, when When Māori lost a lot of the land, a lot of terrible things happened. Today, it's a roller coaster ride. Before the last election or before the pandemic, there was There's actually a cultural renaissance happening here. That even all of us are starting to learn Māori. We use Māori greeting. We are proud of learning about this part of our heritage. But There's also been a pivot and a swing away from celebrating the richness of this culture to saying we're all human beings. There's this thing happening, and I think it's probably happening everywhere around the world because the world's under stress.
Shireen Chua
We're all fear from the pandemic, the economic. It's pushing us backwards in our feeling safe in all the cultural differences that we see.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah. But it's an interesting culture in that sense. Everything you mentioned there and then the way that is the... If you look at other culture where there also were indigenous tribes, where they were treated very differently and they were maybe not that open to whatever changes was coming in, not involuntarily or voluntarily. Like, Okay, this is what we're going to have to deal with. If you look now, as you said, a little bit about what we are feeling today as a different cultures around the world and the stress and everything. Looking from the historical context, how has the culture been shaped? If you look at a professional today, growing up in New Zealand, getting into the workforce, and now we're going to talk about the specific characteristics of someone from a culture. How has that maybe impacted in some sense? Is it changing quite a lot? Can you put some words to what you could expect from a professional Kiwi in a workplace setting?
Shireen Chua
I think there's a lot of ways to answer this question, but one of the things to say is that in terms of culture, our national culture is not just one part of our identity. Our gender, where we grew up, our generation, how old we are, also influences how we see the world. So Hewis that travel and become expats often do what is often the rite of passage, which is to go on an OE. After they finish university, they go traveling or even before. They go to Europe because some will have British passports from their grandparents. So they go and travel there. And some, they've found their niche in the world and have made their mark in London, New York, Germany, wherever. And By that time, if they've really settled into life beyond, New Zealand becomes too small. But the Kiwis that do go often are the ones that can afford to go. So generally, your New Zealand, European Pākehā who can travel or who have ancestry to go passport. Now, interestingly, there's a whole bunch of Māori. Actually, there's more Māori in the Gold Coast, I think. They're all going there because they're working in the mines and they're doing some good work there.
Shireen Chua
So wherever you are, you'll find Kiwis. Now, often the general stereotype that I've heard-Let's talk to them stereotypes. I don't know because I haven't traveled to Europe as much as others do, but they often talk about very friendly, hardworking, generally informal. And that's I come from a background of a farming, agricultural, primary producing country. If you have seen the cultural detective lenses, they talked about the Kiwi culture, and this, I think, would be your New Zealand European culture, is that they just get stuck in the things. They're very earthy, they are modest. Then they were going to say, We're just so brilliant. They are Restraint. We're often reserved, not as extroverted, I guess, as if you were just seeing an Australian in New Zealand, you'll tell them very differently. One's more extroverted and we're more restrained, I think. Fairness is a core value. They always talk about the number 8 fencing wire, kiwi ingenuity, always trying to solve problems. Those cultural lenses are often how you would describe kiwis, and they take what they've learned or grew up with here to the world. There's also some dark sides to that. I mean, with culture, there's all of this good stuff.
Shireen Chua
But for example, the restraint It's hard. In New Zealand, there's the dark part of it, it's the tall puppy. If you are absolutely shining and doing really well, they chop the tall poppies down. In some ways, those that make it abroad, I think they tried to come back during COVID and resettle here. Apart from the cost of living and life here is very hard. It's hard to fit in because the society here or culture here is that we don't like people to be so successful in some ways, which is quite a sad part to acknowledge.
Paul Arnesen
The Also for the listeners, the tall puppy syndrome is very similar to the law of Jante that we have in Scandinavia, where you're not supposed to, you shouldn't show off in any sense. You should be very humble. That's the same idea. I have a video on that as well, but it's a similar concept.
Shireen Chua
And similar in Japan. I think every society has some degree of that. How strong that is actually adhered to is the question.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah, no, no, exactly.
Shireen Chua
Different generations, you see different generations. I think the generational culture is the one that's most fascinating. The younger generation don't seem to do that as much.
Paul Arnesen
I think one thing that you said that was interesting, and this is something that I guess is something that you might hear often if you say, Oh, I'm from New Zealand. Then maybe the person you speak to have had some encounters with someone from Australia, and they might put you into the same category. Is that offensive? Because I'm I'm just going to say from personal experience that if someone thinks I'm Swedish and I'm Norwegian, I'm not going to get offended because that's not my personality, but it's wrong because I'm not Swedish, I'm Norwegian. We're very proud of that. Is it the same with this New Zealand, Australia, in some sense?
Shireen Chua
I think we have a similar relationship like US and Canada. We're the small brother, and in some ways it reveals some of our insecurities if we get offended if we're classified as Australians. But the fascinating thing is we're often forgotten. If When we look at some of the world maps, they stop at Australia. I think there's been quite a lot of jokes made out of that in that sense. I guess that our maturity to handle being little is perhaps still young. We're a very young nation. Having just talked to some friends who visited Europe and was showing me the whole photo real, I just thought I We would never see any of those buildings that you've got for 800 years in Germany and checklist, all of those buildings, even after war. We don't have anything That old. The oldest that we've got is, I don't know, under 200 years old. We're a young nation, architecturally and probably culturally as well. Being remote makes it harder for cultures to really develop and mature.
Paul Arnesen
But somehow, getting a lot of people coming here.
Shireen Chua
We're very diverse.
Paul Arnesen
No, my first impression coming to Auckland over a decade ago was the diversity of the people I saw in the street. It was also at the university where I studied. It was just the professors were from everywhere, but they looked like they were from everywhere. I'm not saying they were from everywhere. They were, as you said, they were Kiwis.
Shireen Chua
In Auckland City, you would see that. The further south you go, the less diverse it is. If you had traveled further south, you wouldn't see as much diversity, although that's changing. The workforce shortage has meant that we are seeing a lot more people coming in to make their lives here. The farmers, we're seeing a lot of Filipinos become sharemilkers, and also in our aged care. The jobs draw people to come here. But it is diverse and you notice it because we're in a small city.
Paul Arnesen
No, it's very easy to see immediately. I was also thinking another...
Shireen Chua
Yeah, go for it.
Paul Arnesen
No, I was thinking another thing you mentioned there about the history being a young nation. It's actually probably outdated. Obviously, I mentioned this earlier. One of the main studies that were done on culture many years ago was the Hofstede one. Funnily enough, because I have this old book. He did an index called long term orientation, which basically means the top one would be China, something that preserves culture in many ways, like things about the old days and values. New Zealand was actually quite low on that. But that study was done in the '60s and '70s and I think published in the '80s. We mentioned a little bit at the beginning about how the integration of, say, the Maori, which is the oldest culture. We should look at that culture. That's more than 200 years old, obviously. Do you think that in some ways that there is a shift happening now that in terms of, say, that you don't really have a history of old buildings and stuff, but maybe culturally, you take things from the past and bring it into the new?
Shireen Chua
Well, I think this is a fascinating thing. What Hofstetter found is twofold. It has revolutionized our understanding of culture and organizations. He's put words into different cultural values that exist. But what's changing is the fact that New Zealand is more than the Pākehā. And that's why it's getting so complex. And this is what I've been researching and doing my study in, is that different parts of New Zealand, different cultures in New Zealand, have got different value orientations. You can't say New Zealand is a short term or a long term orientation because yes, the Māori, if you look at the strategic plans of Some of our iwi, our tribe-organised businesses, they plan three generations deep. That's long term orientation. If you actually browse the New Zealand Hérald at the moment, Our biggest headache is our short-term thinking, which is shaped by our short election cycles in one sense. They're making decisions that they get in and they have to show that they're This is what we think. They have to deliver something, and then they've got one year to do that, and then the next year is to campaign to win another election. It's three years.
Shireen Chua
The news on Saturday is that the last government has committed to have a rail from the CPD to our airport. This government has just canceled it. That's quite short-term orientation because this is not the first-time decision. They have been overturned. Every time you do that, the price goes up exponentially. Transport is still a problem, public transport. There's both long-term orientation and short-term. I think that the moral of the story is that stereotypes are a starting point. Hofstetter's Five have been superseded by Trump and ours, and there's several others. I use culture mapping International, and Erin Meyer's got stuff. They show polarities of different cultural values that might be national, but I think what we've got to start to see is that generation starts to infuse in it because culture is not contained to just one part of us. Not this part's our generation. It's all of us. It's layers. I often talk about the fact that we are multidimensional beings. Who you interact with, start with the stereotypes. Start with observations of who you meet. Then I just keep going, go deep, be curious. If you see strange patterns of behavior, be curious enough to ask.
If they're in conflict with you, particularly in the expat workplace, you're going to have to develop what I call cultural agility. How important is this in your team? Is it going to be good or is it going to rub? Who's going to have to find a way to work through that?
Paul Arnesen
I think it's also interesting that you mentioned Erin Meyer and the culture map. Just because I have the book here and I was looking in the directory for New Zealand, and I only found it mentioned once or twice. And it was mentioned, that's why I mentioned earlier about Anglo-Saxon because that's how it was mentioned. It was mentioned as part of the Anglo-Saxon culture. Meaning, if you look at something that, at least for me, if you look at something like a dimension that is often mention in any research about culture is the femininity, masculinity part of a culture where you have egalitarian cultures and stuff like that. New Zealand is interesting because actually it scores as very masculine, especially I don't know if you look at something like a typical Anglo-Saxon culture. It could be easily misunderstood, I think, for someone that is looking at it from the outside before moving to New Zealand thinking I want you to tell me a little bit about this because we can see that you had a female Prime Minister that took charge during a difficult time. It was a global phenomenon, the way she led the people and everything through I grew there.
I think you just see that, and my experience as well, living there, that is a very egalitarian society. At the university, there's a lot of female professors everywhere, and it's very down to earth the way we greet each other and talk to each other. I didn't really see that masculinity in that sense that maybe some research would put high on that dimension. I think that can be a misunderstanding. Or is it a misunderstanding? Tell us a little bit about that, if you have any.
Shireen Chua
I'd say that we're more egalitarian than masculine in some sense. But again, this is complex. We can't put people in boxes, in countries in boxes, in the sense that my thinking around that is, firstly, who wrote the book and where did the research come from? A lot of research on culture has come from majority American lenses. So it's shaped by the lenses of what's That's observed here. Grassroots, again, it's hard to say. Who do you ask will reveal how they see the world? Because we see the world through our eyes, not through facts. We're I'm even very proud of being the first to get women to vote, so women's suffrage. The last Prime Minister Dame, Jacinda Arden, was not the first female leader. She is probably the most well known in how she led, which was with compassion as well as a feminine side. But she was actually the third or fourth. You have Helen Clarke, you have Jenny Shippley. I think it's more feminine because at one point in time, the top four leaders in the country were women. Our chief Justice, our Governor General, the last two were women. There is a lot of opportunity.
Now, having said that, it's interesting. Just as the world is wrestling with women in leadership. We still see the gap in business. We are doing quite poorly with having female chief executives, although I would say three or four of our largest banks are now led by women. But it's still an ongoing, I guess, journey. And what is the answer? Is it 50/50? I don't know those questions, but I think one of the things is that it is possibly more feminine than masculine. But there's still a masculine side because we're a farming culture. We're egalitarian. I think, again, I see culture's dynamic. In times of stress, you revert back to type. I don't know if there's evidence about it, but a lot of people are talking about the fact that our female leaders and politicians get critiqued and are criticized far more than our male politicians for being who they are. I think I saw several news articles in Europe about your female prime ministers. There is a higher standard, it would appear. To me, that's something to challenge and ask why.
Paul Arnesen
I think it's a global phenomenon. Being from Scandinavia, we are very egalitarian, at least on the outside. Norway also recently had a female Prime Minister. She did really well for many years. But obviously, and I didn't really look into it like you did, but criticized that in a different way than a male counterpart would have been. It's an interesting...
Shireen Chua
There seems to be a double standard. But again, it's both individual perception as well as collective perception and the challenge with cultures, who said that and how has become something that everyone's owned. It's an interesting dynamic, I mean, the world's a pretty scary place in 2024. We are being pushed into behaving in certain ways where we may not necessarily have chosen to or thought to.
Paul Arnesen
Now, let's move on to a little bit more of a... It's not a negative note we're talking about. It's an interesting note, but I wanted to progress a little bit in our conversation and go to talk a little bit about... You mentioned a little bit already about career career, work-life balance. But I'm curious in general sense, because if you say, or you said earlier that there's a big brain drain in New Zealand. I know that from when living there. It was a big topic at university when I studied HR. Is that something that is still the big truth that a lot of people, when they're young, They go to a school, they start an educational journey, universities start working, and then the goal is to move out, or are they happy to stay put? I mean, this is very generalizing, obviously, but what is the common theme here or trend that is happening in New Zealand?
Shireen Chua
If you listen to the media, oh, yeah, it's the big brain drain, and everyone's going to Australia and beyond because our pay rates and everything is not up to standard. The last end of the year, they're saying everyone's leaving to go to Australia. But I don't know how much of that is a full story because as a migrant myself, leaving a country and moving to somewhere is hard, hard, hard to do. If money is your motivation, it can only carry you so far because culture and acceptance and being comfortable in where you live and being able to just relax is something that's a gift. There are people going abroad by very nature because we're a small country, and some of our brightest and most brilliant people have gone to the global stage.
Paul Arnesen
I think that... Sorry, I just wanted to say that what I'm trying to come to here is, is a Kiwi very ambitious? Are they looking to develop themselves professionally or are they more family-oriented? You know what I mean?
Shireen Chua
Yeah, some. I would say that there are some who are ambitious. Again, these are all stereotypes, but travel to see the world because there is that curiosity and wanting to see what the world has. Some do seek greater ambitions. I'll The current Prime Minister went abroad. The last two male Prime ministers were ambitious. They worked in the New York Stock Exchange and stuff. There are those as well. The ones that choose to stay, probably for lifestyle and family reasons. There is a different pace of life here. I think we're at four weeks annual leave here on top of your public holidays. I understand in America, it's two weeks. The work-life balance is why many choose to live here. It's still a 40-hour working week here. In some sense, That's, again, a generalization, but weekends are family time and recreation time. Hit the beach if you're close to a beach or the outdoors. That's the culture here. When folk go abroad, it's for career opportunities and also to see the world. To a degree, there always is a brain drain. After you graduate, like you came here to study, many go abroad to work. Whether they come back depends on how successful they are abroad.
The Career New Zealand Network captures a lot of those professionals that still have a strong sense of being a Kiwi, but hey, they work in London now. They're in Australia. In today's world, the global village, you've got this amazing amount of people movement that It's enriching the culture, particularly if they have a choice for it. Those that don't, who are displaced, have a different context.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's interesting, obviously, as we have mentioned many, many times about New Zealand, is that you have that Differences within the country that is very evident with some of the... My understanding, at least, and from my friends in New Zealand, which are actually, funnily, mostly Maori. Most of my friends are Māori because they have this more communal family. They have bigger families. That for them to move abroad to do that journey is more difficult because they have maybe a higher expectations of taking care of the family than someone who is not.
Shireen Chua
I think that's interesting. I think Māori are so hospitable. Part of their DNA is just you're one of us, especially if you're just wanting to be curious about who they are. I know I've experienced incredible embrace to that. I've learned my pepeha. Next year, or this year, I'll be starting further in-depth study in Te Reo, Māori, because that's what's happening here. In one sense, if they move, the family moves. That's why there's a whole group of folk that have gone to Gold Coast or in Australia. I think there's also clusters around the world, but they don't necessarily move as much as the young Kiwis that go abroad to work in OEs and stuff. But I think today's world It is such a different world. Anyone that does want to move can if they're at a push. It makes culture and studying culture and also experience influencing culture at work or leisurely, something that now we are becoming more aware of. But we also need to understand the nuances that come into play because For every case study that I tell you, there might be five others that are different. You go, Hang on a minute, I'm not that.
Why is she talking about New Zealand culture? Can't you get a Kiwi, Paul? A real Kiwi I'm not going to talk to you. There's always going to be, Well, how Kiwi do you have to be to talk about this? I guess my heart on this is that all of us be able able to be curious about anyone and everyone, how they see the world, why do they do what they do. It's shaped by where they were born, where they are now, the life experiences that they've had. But all of us live here in this world. We're all multidimensional human beings, unique in one way. Your experience is not Not one that any Norwegian has. You're not Norwegian, but you're so much more. What would it look like for our world and our workplaces if we just delve deeper and deeper, be curious, be humble, be open to mistakes and stuffing up, but unlocking the richness that it can bring to your teams and organizations wherever in the world you are, and even when you visit New Zealand.
Paul Arnesen
Absolutely. I work in HR, and I do speak to a lot of leaders, especially young startup founders and everything about cultural awareness that you're mentioning now, to be curious about the people in your team. I think this is also where I will go to the next question that is, Because I know that just from my... If you talk about the innermost layer of me, the innermost layer of what motivates me to stay in a job and be engaged, at least at the workplace. I wanted to ask you if you have any, call it any advice for if it actually exists. I guess it does because people have different motivational factors that They like it. A Norwegian, for example, wants to be left alone. Just give me a task and I will handle it. Don't say, If you have to guide me, do that once, and I'm happy. It's like with freedom comes responsibility, we call it. There's a lot of Kiwis that have, as you said, left, and I guess there's a lot of them in... I know there's a lot of them in London, for example. If you are working in a team, you might have someone who comes from born and raised in that culture.
Do they bring someone Is there something like this with them? Is there anything specific that is detrimental to the motivation? Or not detrimental, but something that can inhibit their best? Is there something that you should think about if you have someone from New Zealand in your team?
Shireen Chua
Well, again, I can't speak for the ones that are in London anywhere. But in general, I think that for most people, when they're least valued, least trusted, and least empowered, so the negatives, when you don't trust them, you don't empower them, and you don't value them, they don't shine, particularly more so today, because your generational culture There's clashes there. But even as a human being, I don't know about you, but when someone just goes, You've done such a great job. Wow, we just love what you do. You want to do more. It's human. How the language is communicated is the bit you need to discover. You need this intercultural intelligence and cultural agility to figure out this person in front of you, what motivates them. In New Zealand, it could be Fridays off. There was a massive campaign or research for the four-day working week for the same pay. It's gone global now, but the guys that did the research on it showed that so much time is wasted, that actually you can hire someone and where possible, give them a four-day working week because life is busy. Now, most bosses and organizations will go, That's not possible.
I run a call center. Now, today's world is such that the complexity is that this is the status quo. Find a solution together that is unique rather than say, Oh, no, it's not going to work. Today's employees, wherever wherever they are in the world, that's according to my research, is that they want to be heard, seen, respected, and valued. What is the currency? Is it time? Is it more money? Is it working together on projects? It's shifting it from the differences to creating common purpose and with safety, unlocking that. Kiwis from here will bring some of their background to your workplace and Some of that we talked about is, characteristically, they'll solve problems, but not all do. So don't stay in the stereotypes, would be my suggestion.
Paul Arnesen
I think it's interesting sometimes Also thinking about the stereotype because you mentioned the tall puppy syndrome. If I can compare it to what is the law of Yante in Scandinavia, where I would never be the loudest in an office setting. I would never be the one who banks the drum and says, Look at me, look what I did. I will be more reserved. If you have a leadership style where you want to have, say, a sales team or something that everybody's going to be, Let's go to the top of this mountain and bring everybody forward as a leader, you might find it maybe frustrating if you hire someone and you have that expectation of them. And one of the reasons, this is actually It's interesting today, I read a lot of job descriptions where they say, Oh, we need you to be extroverted, this and you need to be this and that. And it just really doesn't click with me, for example, sometimes if I look at this because I'm not that naturally. I've just been raised to be more humbled about, I want to be more in the background. Is that also true? I mean, it's changing, obviously.
I said culture is all about being in front of everybody now, but maybe you still keep a little bit of that from the Kiwi culture?
Shireen Chua
I think so. We We're probably restrained, would be the word. I don't think most would say how awesome they are. Even our Olympians and the people that went, they've won the rugby World Cup, you don't see them boasting. It's just not something one does. When it does come to job descriptions, I think one of the things is the job description reveals more more about the person hiring and the company organizational culture than the person that's applying because it's a two-way street. Today's professionals are also checking out the companies that they work for. I have heard of people that go, Oh, no, I'm not even wanting to work there. They don't do this, this, this, and that's against my values. There's greater awareness awareness and agency amongst your professionals, particularly with the rise in global talent shortage. All around the world, we're looking for talent. Busters and companies now need to really figure out how to actually attract the quality people and keep them. Again, organizational culture plays such a key part in that. It takes leadership start to go, Hey, it's not just about we're so good, come and work for us. It's like, No, we've got to work hard at making this the best place ever.
Paul Arnesen
No, it's true. I think in many ways, when we talk about cross-cultural management practices, it's also just to think about this as a diversity. You create a diverse workforce within your company. That means that having an understanding, cultural awareness in We talk the learning about cross-cultural practices. You can adopt that to create diverse workforces because there's a lot of things, especially about learning about being aware of someone's inner needs and wants and motivational things, it will help you. I think that it will help the organization and the leader to get a better performing team and happier team and more motivated team.
Shireen Chua
Hiring for fit because you get... Actually, I would say don't hire for fit because you get groupthink. The evidence shows that you hire for fit. Everyone goes, Oh, sorry, that didn't fit the culture. Who are you wanting? Someone the same because culture is such that you got to toe the line or you get out. But how about creating a safe space for people with different experiences and perspectives and values to come in because this is the journey of the sweet spot. You start here, you've got a highly functioning monocultural team, but they only can go so far because the deep diversity, so not your demographic, not your visible, not your national identity, but all the things we talk about, the values, our worldviews, our personalities, and how we process, that comes after the job interview when you work in team. Now, if you go, Oh, there's problems. Get rid of that person. You haven't got there. You got to work together, build each other, create psychological safety, inclusion, and belonging. And those teams with the right management will outperform any monocultural team. The sweet spot of that is the creativity, the innovation, the engagement, the retention that every company works.
But it's not a switch. It's an ongoing journey of culture making in your organization and your team that you need to be aware of. It's a dynamic process. What behaviors do you want to amplify and what do you want to stop is as simple as that. Today, you don't have a choice because the world is so diverse now that you will hire differently.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah, and I think it's very easy to get into. That's why I mentioned a job description, because today, most companies, especially the people I speak to that are young startup founders, I call them young, they're early startup founders. They started a company and they want to hire someone. They find a job description online. They copy it. So I need that person to be this and that. And they're just like, is that really the people you really want to come in? Look at yourself. Look at yourself. Who are you? And all of a sudden, you're going to build this team of people. If you're super introverted yourself and you're going to build a team full of extroverted people, you're going to have a very weird culture in your company. Instead of thinking about this, as you said, we are so diverse. We are so different. We are coming from different parents, different schools, educational backgrounds, struggles in life, this and that. We bring so much value that you should think about this.
Shireen Chua
It's not a goal. It's purpose. What is the purpose? Your organization, your vision and purpose. I don't not see that much. I was just looking at some job descriptions, and it's been fascinating because, again, like I said, job descriptions, you're writing it for someone. In New Zealand, they'll be writing it for, We want the person to be tax initiative. For a lot of my Asian friends and colleagues, where initiative taking is not something that they have been exposed to. They fit every part of the criteria, but they fall in that. Oh, you can't teach initiative taking. I said, Have you tried? Because today's world, the job description is only a guide. You'll never get someone that fits it perfectly because whoever applies, there is a pool that you go to.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah, No, it's true.
Shireen Chua
It's a fascinating dynamic, but I think today's will requires us to go deep, that we have to process and think deeper than just that.
Paul Arnesen
Absolutely. I think it's I like learning about culture, and I think it helps just to have an understanding of every culture because they have so much value that they bring to a team, and you can maybe take advantage of that in some sense. It's very small details, but it can be something. Just because we are getting up on time here, is there anything you wanted to say, anything you wanted to mention that we haven't talked about that you had prepared before, or Is there anything else that you think is interesting for the listener to learn about New Zealand or anything that might be maybe a misconception you hear often that you want to clarify?
Shireen Chua
I haven't heard many misconceptions in terms of it out there. Generally, I hear good things that Kiwis are hardworking, they're very friendly people, and they're scattered around the world. The intrepid and explorer, so they're traveling and explore. In New Zealand, we see the world coming to us as well. Whether it's in tourism, international education or business, I coach expats coming in here, and the world is coming here for what we offer, which is this lower pace of life, the nature and the beauty here. We are in a world that is fluid and dynamic and changing. So I guess if there's anything, the last words I say is wherever you are, be curious about the people in front of you. Be curious about them more than their nationality and find out who they really are. Because when you do, that's where you hit goal. So often people start with me and go, Where are you from? And I'll say, Oh, my Turangawa is from Palmerston North. And there's always this, No, you are from China. I was like, I've never I've been to China. Palmerston North is where I found myself when I studied at university, just as you did in Auckland, AUT.
Our stereotypes can lead us the wrong way, but when the people that recover and find out more and be curious become really rich friends and colleagues, whereas those that go, Oh, no, you should be from China. You don't get anywhere. My whole professional journey and what I do in my research and my teaching and my facilitation is to get people to go, Hey, I'm Shirine, the Chinese. That's one part of me, but get to know me as Shirine, not the Chinese. Be curious, be open to your stereotypes to be challenged in your hiring, your meeting of any Kiwi, and you might make some amazing friends like you really have.
Paul Arnesen
Absolutely. I think it also changed me quite a lot to live there and just to have that openness. For me, it was the first long-term experience abroad, and I really learned to appreciate different cultures and people in a different way than if I never left my home country. That's difficult for a lot of people. Actually, it brings me to the last point I have. Do you have any recommendation, anything that people can tune into? It could be a really good book or maybe a movie or series or whatever. That can give you a little bit of a snapshot of... It doesn't have to be just the personality of someone from New Zealand, but it's a little bit about the culture. I want to mention one first. Maybe you had the same one because it's a very good movie, which for me, at least, says a lot about the humor of the Māori people, and that's the movie, Boy. It's It's a very funny movie and it's a very good movie. And the director of that movie has gone on to become a very big Hollywood director and movie star. So boy, it's a movie I would recommend. I think it's a very good funny movie.
Shireen Chua
I think more recently, The Hunt for the Wilder People is one that also talks about the rural life and the humor that came out of that. That's something everyone seems to be watching before they come New Zealand. We're known for the movie set of The Lord of the Rings, not necessarily culture. But the more serious ones, Fina, which is the lady Dame Fina Cooper talks about her life story. But out of that, you see the landmarch or how the Māori people fought back for the land that they lost. That gives you a sense of history. Other sites of Kiwi humor, flight of the Concordes, talk a little bit about the Kiwi restraint thing. If you want to hear music, you get crowd at house, Tim Finn, Dave Dobbin would probably be our local hero. You hear a lot of the themes. If you fly into New Zealand, they often play Welcome Home, which is what Dave Dobbin will play whenever we win the Americas Cup again. They use that as an anthem to celebrate people coming back to New Zealand. Those are a few of the ones that I can think of. We don't have any quintessential ones like the Australian. You go, Oh, you need to watch the castle. I was like, Well, I haven't.
Paul Arnesen
What's it called? Is it Shortland Street? No, that's the British one. Yes.
Shireen Chua
Shortland Street It's still going 20 something years later. So neighbors is finished, but Shortland Street is still young, so that's still going. There is some sense of Kiwi culture, although I don't know if it really represents New Zealand. It represents what the producers or the writers want to tell you. I think the best way to find out if they can is come for a shorter or long term experience. We're seeing a lot more expats coming in for short term placements or longer term if it's possible, with work. Like you, you leave different people. But in terms of books, I can't think of any off the top of my head that are quintessentially New Zealand. But yeah, movies, you've got boy, the Whale Ryder. There's been some really amazing ones done about Māori culture. I can't think of any off the top of my head. Sioni's Wedding is one about Pacific Island culture. Being very little, we don't have much lots and lots of movies that- No, but it's a...
Paul Arnesen
Some of these movies are brilliant. I also want to mention on the music because I was just thinking about when you mentioned that, that in New Zealand, there's a genre of music that's very big, and it's the dub It's basically a slow reggie type. I don't want to butcher what the genre is, but it's what puts for me when I listen to that music, I go back to New Zealand. It's The slow life you live there, the nature of the people.
Shireen Chua
We've had some really amazing authors that have written. One of them, Eleanor, she won the A really large Pulitzer Prize, but I can't think of her. We've been known in the past for the likes of Catherine Mansfield in the old era, but also here We've got different cultures. We've got a few winemakers now that are really punching above their weight. Sam Neill owns a vineyard as well as a movie theater.
Paul Arnesen
Just I love New Zealand. I would highly recommend if you go there, stay more than a week. You have to explore the country. You need at least two weeks. Travel everywhere because Oakland is just one part of it, and it can be very overwhelming and big when you come there, but then you just go to the north or you go to the South Island. You're going to see so much beauty and so many very friendly people. It's It's a beautiful country, and I highly recommend going there and then just explore.
Shireen Chua
One of the other things to note is it's two degrees of separation in New Zealand. That's a very typical thing. I just think how we met Paul, it was through someone else that followed you. In New Zealand, do not be surprised if you meet someone that knows someone else. We're just that small. If anyone comes here, reach out on LinkedIn to me, and you may find that you know others. In any way, we are most happy to welcome you here and also give you some tips or connect you however and whenever you want to. If you're coming here professionally, there are a bunch of networks that certainly I can put you in touch with. If you're coming here for a holiday, got some friends that run great tour experiences and things that I can hook you up with as well.
Paul Arnesen
How do they reach you then? Let's end with that. How can people get in touch with you? If they're interested in talking to you?
Shireen Chua
Probably the best platform will probably be LinkedIn. You'll find me on LinkedIn. My name's Shirine, S-H-I-R-E-E-N. My pseudonyms, Chua. You'll find me there or on Paul's LinkedIn page, follow Paul and find me.
Paul Arnesen
Yes, you will find her there as well.
Shireen Chua
I also have a website called www.Thirdculture.Co.Nz, which is in the process of being updated. You'll see me there when I put my photo up soon.
Paul Arnesen
Brilliant. She has also a TED Talk that you should check out on YouTube. Oh, right.
Shireen Chua
Yes.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah, I looked at it. It's a fascinating presentation there as well. You should definitely check that out. I will link everything in the show notes to this episode. You will find recommendations there, the details to to connect with Shirine and anything else we talked about. So thank you again, Shirine, for your time. Super valuable conversation. Takes me back to New Zealand. Obviously, I love it deeply. I have a big affection for the culture there. The only thing I wish, but I can't do anything with is that it's so isolated. It's so far away from everything. So life is difficult to just move there for a while when you're young and family to take care of, but it's definitely a consideration to come in the future.
Shireen Chua
Well, come and visit in the short term if you can't live here, but there are many that come for different reasons. Family ties make it harder and harder. I know my family is a global family, but I came when I was 12, so they left me.
Paul Arnesen
Well, family is something that really can't get rid of. They stick around until.
Shireen Chua
It's a special place.
Paul Arnesen
It's absolutely a special place. Okay, well, thank you very much. Now it's late for you. Enjoy the rest of your evening.
Shireen Chua
I love wrestling and talking about this whole space and learning and researching it because I think it's such a powerful thing. Culture is what glues us together, but it can also be what makes or breaks us in some ways.
Paul Arnesen
Absolutely. Let's end with that.
Shireen Chua
Yeah, let's end with that. We often say,, as you leave the Air New Zealand airplane, it says, Until we meet again. I hope we do.
Paul Arnesen
We will. Thank you, Shirine. Have a good day.
Shireen Chua
Good night. Bye-bye. Good night.
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