Paul Arnesen
Hey, Christina. Welcome to the Working With Us podcast. How are you today?
Kristina Roppelt
Thank you, Paul. I'm doing just great because I'm also very excited about our episode, and I I trust that you're excited, too.
Paul Arnesen
I'm very excited. I like this for the listeners, this in between episodes of the Working With Us podcast where we dive deeper into cross-cultural topics. And today, I'm very excited to talk to you. Obviously, you have a lot of experience as you could hear in the intro, working in different cultures, living abroad, in many, many different places. So I'm very excited to ask you some questions and see where this conversation leads us.
Kristina Roppelt
Thanks, Paul. I'm also very I'm really grateful for you bringing me into this podcast. As I told you, there are not too many pieces of content, especially in the podcast format, about cross-cultural issues that are so practical and at the same time so applicable. I know some of my clients have already heard some of your episodes with my recommendation, so I'm really looking forward to contributing.
Paul Arnesen
That's great. I'm very happy to hear that. Well, hopefully this one also brings equally as much value. I'm pretty sure it will do that. So, Christina, you recently moved to Denmark, one and a half year ago. I'm curious. I'm Scandinavian. Obviously, I'm from Norway, not Denmark, but I have a lot of Danish family, so I've spent a lot of time there. What's some experiences that you had since you moved there that you can maybe tell the listeners about some cross-cultural issues or problems or fascinations that you've seen so far?
Kristina Roppelt
Well, I probably should start by saying that a lot of my personal values align very much with the values that the Danish people share. I do understand that before I moved to Denmark, I've been here already. It's not been something like a dramatic cultural shock to me compared to my experience of when I moved to Korea or to the US. But I would like to share one story which deals with the business environment, since this is specifically the focus of our today's conversation. This happened to one of my East European partners who has asked me if I could possibly help him set up event in Copenhagen, a networking meeting. I gladly accepted this proposal because I thought it would be really helpful. He runs a great entrepreneurial and IT community, and I definitely offered him some formats that I can assist with, and we ended up discussing a potential date. Since the conversation happened in February, my suggestions were all rolling around May or maybe June, considering that it would be important for us to be well-prepared for the meeting and give them, local people, enough time to save the date in their calendars. My East European partner looked at me with crazy eyes and asked, What are you talking about? I'm not ready to plan anything beyond 30 days. So this is the max that I can do. Are you sure you really need to plan two, three, four months ahead? And in response to that, I gave him an idea that sometimes when you call to a Danish restaurant or a bar and you want to book a table, do you know, Paul, how long is the period that you can book a table at a beer place in Copenhagen? What's your assumption?
Paul Arnesen
Well, it's been many years since I was in Copenhagen and I had to book anything. I don't know, maybe a week, 10 days in advance?
Kristina Roppelt
It's said you can book any time starting from tomorrow for up to three months in advance. That's the range of planning. That's a beautiful example of how I I tried to show to my partner that you really, really need to be a little bit more in advance with the local public, considering how long it takes for the local people to build trust and how far in advance they plan, considering the amazing work-life balance that these people have achieved. So I think this is a beautiful example that tracks the start of our intercultural conversation today.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah. And I also want to add, obviously, that the Danish people in general is not happy. They're not that comfortable with surprises. So that's also a reason why it's easier for them to have something planned out in advance so they know what they can expect. That's the cultural aspect. I have an episode where I talk to an expert from Denmark about these things, and we actually go into depth about that surprise element, which is super fascinating when it comes to Danish culture, even in a professional setting, but also in a personal setting. That's true. Just knocking on someone's door and asking them to go out for a beer, it's almost like you shouldn't do that. You should always prepare in advance.
Kristina Roppelt
Exactly. Usually, the guests that you already have invited would come something like five minutes prior to the time that you promised to come, which is fine as long as you are aware of this specificity. I think we're going to talk about this, about how we can be better prepared to some unexpected situations when you move to a different country or you move into a different team, even virtually sometimes. That's a big issue for those people who work remotely for a multicultural team.
Paul Arnesen
Absolutely. Yeah. So obviously, as I mentioned in the introduction, the topic is moving to work in a foreign team. If you're a foreigner, you come into a new country, you're going to work there. Maybe you're the only one who's not from that culture. It's going to be some issues. So, Christina, I'm actually interested because you obviously have that experience. As you mentioned earlier, you have been South Korea to Silicon Valley, now in Denmark. What are some strategies that have helped you integrate and move into new cultures as you moved along in your lifetime?
Kristina Roppelt
Right. Considering that I am an entrepreneur myself, and in many cases, I'm the one responsible for building my own context and environment, we have to make a little disclaimer that once you're moving to a different country as a part of some formal institution, organization, or company, that definitely sets a certain context. Because when you're joining a well-established institution or just a newly built team or startup, for example, there is Certainly a big organizational context around it, and the local organizations culture plays an important role. But I'll start by speaking about myself, how when I moved abroad, what strategies actually helped me be better prepared and better equipped. I should say that we'll probably split them into three broader categories, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners will be able to add more of the examples into each of that category. The first thing that I would usually advise to anybody who is moving to a foreign place, that be for studies, for work, or even for personal reasons, is, of course, to explore more about the culture and the country, but not in a sense how we might assume that. It's not all about opening a Wikipedia page and reading more about which are the biggest city in this country or which are the most popular languages spoken around that. But being a bit more curious and going a little deeper into the details, which are usually socioeconomic and cultural details that can help you set a better understanding of the local culture. That includes, for example, learning a bit more about local educational system, about local medical system, about how the families are structured, how big or small they are, what's the average age when people marry or have kids, what's the attitude towards ethnic minorities, racial minorities, sexual minorities, what's the attitude towards these or that values? In this regard, there are multiple amazing sources, from World Values survey with its Ingleheart map to some more practical and more easy to digest resources such as Cultural Atlas. So exploring more details and And dig in a little deeper than just learning some superficial facts about who's the king of this country and when the Prime Minister is going to be out of office is extremely helpful in this regard. So that's my very first big piece of advice. I don't know if you want to add.
Paul Arnesen
I wanted to add because this is super interesting. And it's so true because learning about the socioeconomic facets of a country tells a lot about how the people are, how the people behave, how they react, because you can compare it very easily to your own culture because you have been born and raised into a socioeconomic structure yourself. And then you can start to have some awareness of why you react to the things you do. Say, for example, as you mentioned, how people just get along in terms of religion, in terms of business meetings, in terms of salary expectations, these things. And then what's your experience from your country? Put that into one bracket and then say, okay, and then learn about what's on the outset, what you can expect when you come into that new culture before you go there. Because when you're there, these things, they are not necessarily what people talk about. This is written down, and then you will experience as you go along. So this is a very good tip. Absolutely. Thank you, Christine. Yeah, of course.
Kristina Roppelt
I would love to give you multiple examples of how just even learning more about those socio-demographic factors opens the eyes of my clients or my colleagues of myself into the completely new phenomena, but it will take ages. I'll better skip that to maybe another conversation we might have, and we'll move on to the second factor or the second strategy, I would say. This is more about touching a bit more real-time, modern representation and manifestation of a local culture, which is all about modern content and modern media. What I mean under this is, obviously, you can read a lot about the life expectancy and the average salary. But what do people really see as beautiful and interesting, as curious and important? What do people see as an important agenda for their society? It's all about their movies, their music, their media, their social networks, their newspapers and journals. So what is actually the local content that people consume and find interesting? You may start anywhere from most popular blogs in India 2024 up to top TikTok performers in Mexico 2023. So any content that is available to you will be good for you in this regard, even if you're not particularly a big fan of this or that social network. This is something that shows you what what people are curious about. This is something that is paving and interesting, let's say, background for your further conversations with the locals, because suddenly it will turn out that cricket is the most important sports in India or as they call it, one of their three religions together with Hinduism and cinema. This is just an example that will open your eyes towards something that was completely on your blind spot. Of course, you may ask me, Well, Christina, of course, that's easy if that's an English-speaking country or the country that speaks the same language as you do. How do I go around, let's say, Mexican example from my story if I do not speak Spanish, for instance? Well, in this regard, of course, it is becoming much more challenging, but automated translation in this regard can easily help you make a quick search. This is something that can be nicely done even without the knowing the intricacies of the language. At the same time, this opens It turns you to a whole world of consumable content. For instance, music. You don't really need to understand Spanish to enjoy the most trendy melodies, or you don't really need to know Spanish in order to watch the most popular movies because most likely they've been translated and dubbed already into other languages. So just don't be afraid to face the world of a different language. Of course, it's much easier when it comes to languages of your language family. For example, if you speak German, it's much easier for you to do automatic translation from, let's say, Swedish. And it's much harder if you speak Hebrew and you want to learn something about Korean language. But I assure you, more than simple technologies, well, simple, that's hard to call them simple, but anyway, very widespread, more than technologies, starting from ChatGPT to Google Translate, will certainly help you at least make your first step in this research.
Paul Arnesen
Absolutely, Anna. I also want to mention something that you said there, which I always advise to people when they move to new countries to take a dive into the popular culture, and especially if it comes to things like watching movies and series from a specific country. Because this is an example, if you're going to watch one Italian movie, you're going to see one Italian movie, but Italy is very different from the north to the south. If you see, and then you can make the wrong assumption about the culture, because that movie might be set in Sicily, which is south, or Napoli. Then all of a sudden, you think that's the entirety of the culture, which is not true, because in the north, it's a very different culture. That goes for all cultures that are very big and widespread, that inside of a country, the thing is very different depending on where you live and where you come from locally. So always look at movies and think that it could be a representation of real life, but also put it into the context where they actually is set, which city is set in and everything. Because if you use movies, popular culture, to get an impression of a country, you have to know where it's from. Also, just want to mention about music. You can learn a lot from listening to the music, the emotions in music about the people. Like in Portugal, they have the Fado. The Fado is very emotional. It says a lot about the culture, the generation that grew up in that atmosphere. It gives you an impression of how the country feels. You have the music from Mexico or South America, a lot of rhythms and all that. It sets the tone. I think it's a very fascinating tips. Again, Cristina, thank you.
Kristina Roppelt
Of course. I think you're giving us a great take that could easily be related to people as well. Some of my clients come to me and say, Well, I'm about to take a position in Brazil. I earlier worked a lot with the Brazilian medical professionals, for example, doctors in their 50s, and they were all males. But I'm going to join a new company which is all about trade and commerce. This time I'm going to work with a mixed-gender team, and they're all going to come from different generations. I always warn my clients that you should definitely not rely on the experience, on the homogeneous experience that you've had within your previous encounters with the colleagues from this country, especially considering that now it's going to be a mixed team. It's the same thing. Do not rely on the experience of one specific person or two specific people if you want to build a picture of a very multifaceted culture. And pretty much every culture is multifaceted. If we talk about monoethnic cultures, which are very rare, actually. Yeah, absolutely. I think just to top it on to that, one more little hint is it's a great icebreaker. It's a great start for the conversation with a new team. If you're, for example, moving to, let's say, Canada, and you would like to learn more about this country and you want to watch Canadian movies, listen to Canadian music, watch Canadian TV shows and you don't know where to start, or the research on the internet gives you very numerous options and you're lost between them. It's a great option to ask your colleagues from your future team to say, What are your best recommendations? Where do you suggest that I start? Or go to an expat group on Facebook, for example, and say, What did you guys watch and what did you listen to when you came? What was your favorite pick? And this can also help you start a It's a good conversation, right?
Paul Arnesen
Absolutely. Yeah. I also do that sometimes, especially for being Norwegian. There's a lot of Norwegian series and movies you can watch. I say, You should not watch that one because it's completely wrong. Well, definitely watch that one. It's cheesy for me because What you know is all of that, but still, it's a very good cultural representation of the country. So we, locals, we know what to watch. The social media and the streaming platform, they will push some content to you in in local language and you watch it and you think you know the culture. But maybe if you ask a local about that movie or that series, it might say, It's really not the way we are. So, yeah, that's a good tip.
Kristina Roppelt
It'll be helpful. And of course, if you keep feeding your net, let's say, social network or a platform, that be YouTube or TikTok, with the specific likes that you place over some reels or episodes or featured videos, then you'll getting more of the recommendations. It's just hard to start, but the further you go, the easier it gets. This tip about asking your future team members about what they can recommend is another nice bridge towards my third recommendation, third strategy. It's all about communicating to the people. I personally find it the easiest. I like interviews a bit more than just cabinet research. My favorite strategy is go talk to people, talk to the locals, talk to the expats who live in this country, and talk to the representatives of your culture who already have experience or had experience of living in this culture. Imagine you're a Norwegian, Paul, and you don't need to imagine that because you're a Norwegian, you go to live in Italy. So my best guess would be that it's a great idea to talk to the Italians. It's also good to talk to the Americans who live in Italy, as well as the Nepalese people who live in Italy or Argentian people who live in Italy, as well as speak to the Norwegians who have had experience of living in Italy. And by doing so, you're gathering very diverse perspectives. The local's perspective, the perspective of external expat who also perceive the new culture with the different lens, and the perception of your fellow compatriots, the people of your culture. And it's great if these are people somehow connected to you, maybe someone you relate yourself to, maybe same gender, same generation, maybe same level of qualification. So That also gives you a little bit of a better perspective. So combining all these three categories together can give you, I'd say, a pretty balanced, well-weighted picture.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah. And I think the last point you made there about talking to someone who is local to you, living in the country you're moving to. I see that quite a lot on these expats groups, especially on Facebook, especially when you move to a new country, that sometimes I used to join them, the local whole Norwegian community. And they ask questions about, Oh, I'm thinking about moving here to Italy, for example. And then I can give the perspective that is related to what they have an expectation of that they don't understand. And sometimes, because we make fantasies in our head, based on what we talked about earlier, movies, series, holidays you've been to, that is not the reality. So talking to someone who already lives there or have moved there many years ago doesn't have to be from your culture, but just anyone who is not born and raised there, they will tell you with the honesty, this is what you have to expect. And then you can put it into a different perspective. And so you don't get that cultural shock immediately, which I guarantee you a lot of people will get a culture shock because- I'd say all will.
Kristina Roppelt
Yeah.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah. So that doesn't matter. You can travel like you have for many years. I've been traveling and lived in many countries. But every time I move to a new country, there's always something that surprises me and sets me back a little bit. I go like, Okay, this I really need to understand because this is Confusing or frustrating.
Kristina Roppelt
That's the beauty of it, right?
Paul Arnesen
Absolutely. That's why we learn and that's how we grow. We can't even think about that.
Kristina Roppelt
Sure. Just out of respect to the listeners of ours who may be familiar with some platforms that can help facilitate these connections. There are also listeners who are not very familiar with some of the platforms. In some countries, LinkedIn is not very popular. In some countries, Facebook is not the main means of communication. In some countries, people are not very familiar with such platforms as random coffee, for example. I'd suggest that we just give a quick mention to all of those places where you can connect to the people from a different culture or with your compatriots who have already moved. So don't hesitate to reach out to the people that you meet on the social platforms that you use, on the social networks that you use. Could be, again, for the Chinese, it could be WeChat, for the Koreans, it could be cacao talk. You don't need to Immediately rush into all these new platforms because it might be frustrating and might be overwhelming. But use slowly and steadily the ones that you're familiar with. Find people who could be relatable to you in your issue, in your quest of searching new information, and then proceed slowly to other platforms. But don't forget that there are multiple free tools that you can use to connect to the people who will be super happy to share their experience. You don't need to think like, Oh, I'm just on my own. I'm moving to a new country. I know nobody from there. Hold on a second. Are we sure you have zero connections to this country? Could you be that, let's say, maybe you have an alumni community from your past working experience, and some of your alumni members might be living there. Could it be that your alumni from university, mates that you studied with, maybe they moved in the same country. Maybe you have a passionate hobby and you are a part of a global fan club or a global community that shares the same passion or hobby. Could they be a source for searching and finding the people who are already in this country? So there are actually dozens and dozens of way to connect to the people that could be your supporters in this journey. Don't hesitate, don't be shy, and just always reach out for help. The world is so much more open than we think.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah, absolutely. And also, I just want to mention on the topic, a lot of countries have some economic interest in many countries So they might have some commercial entity that is set up there that do events. The consulats or the embassies might have information that you can reach out to. Some of them are very nice. You can call them. Some of them are very small. So they're very open to talk to you. Totally.
Kristina Roppelt
Trade missions, chamber of commerces, cultural centers, all of those things. Yeah.
Paul Arnesen
Absolutely. Perfect. That's some very insightful tips there. You mentioned a little bit about communication. From your experience, do you have any examples of, I don't know, it has to be examples, but in your training or working with any communication barriers that you have observed or something that you need to overcome when it comes to multicultural teams?
Kristina Roppelt
Yeah, that's a very good question. It leads us more to, let's say, narrow discussion over communication issues that we encounter at a workplace. That's a good time to transition there. Let me just say that I'm very happy throughout the recent years through the work of such creators as yourself, for example, with the podcast, through the work of researchers and general speakers and bloggers who are writing more about cross-cultural issues. We have, let's say, certain consensus around global workers, global trotters, that there are certain barriers that you are inevitably going to encounter when you start working for a foreign company in a foreign country or for a foreign team, even if it's a remote work. These issues usually include such things as feedback style, for example. We have heard multiple times that this is one of the most challenging issues for people from a different culture. If somebody is giving you feedback in a different format, in a different presence, with a different approach, or even if the feedback comes from a different person, maybe not from your boss that you're used to, but from your peers, et cetera. There are also multiple things that have been said about the direct and Direct communication style, high context and low context. There are multiple things that are being said about different managerial styles, hierarchical and more egalitarian, and I don't want to repeat that. But my point here would be a bit more overarching. What I want to say is it's important for your psychological safety to be prepared that once you enter a realm of a foreign team or a foreign company in a new country or remotely, you have to be prepared, simply have to be prepared, that pretty much anything that you perceive as normal or basic or something that goes without saying can be done differently. Again, I applaud to the people who have raised the point about feedback, managerial styles, and hierarchical or egalitarian cultures of decision making. There are so many other issues that can go wrong. The safest thing to do would be to just get mentally prepared for the fact that anything can go wrong, starting from the way you expect your colleagues to congratulate you on your birthday. That has been one of the issues with a close people of mine. When they came to Scandinavia for work, they received a very symbolic gift for their birthday, which was just a tiny little shopping card or a gift voucher for the nearby shopping center. They got so lost, confused, and I would even say, inserted because back in their work culture, It used to be a proper celebration with a cake and a proper little birthday party at work with, I would say, expensive gift and things like that. Even such a tiny little detail can put you back, set you back, and make you think, Oh, I'm probably a bad colleague if somebody doesn't congratulate me on my day in the way I deserve it. Up to the things, for example, as personal time and boundaries. We know very well that in many cultures, such as America or China, you would be expected to work extra hours without even prior notification. Whilst in the majority of places across Europe, crossing over your working hours limit is considered very intrusive into your personal life. A lot of people love to keep work-life balance. There are multiple, multiple, multiple things that people do not even think about as something that could present itself as a barrier. But it's just safe to know that anything that you consider normal can be done differently. And that's just very calming to understand this.
Paul Arnesen
Absolutely. I think it's also important to mention here for the listeners, because some people here might be leaders of multicultural teams as well. So this cultural awareness that we are talking about now, that understanding that there are different practices around the world, it's also important for a leader to understand when they have a team member coming in from a different culture because they might have expectations as you talk about. Like the expectations of, on my birthday, I want to have some... You need to give them some special, not special treatment, but some token of acknowledgement or even name day in some culture is very big. Oh, you didn't remember my name day yesterday. What does that mean? This doesn't mean anything for other cultures. It's like the cultural awareness is always should be reciprocal, should be mutual. But of course, if you're a foreigner coming into a team that is very monocultural, yes, the expectation is more on you to have that understanding because the leader might not even consider that. They just consider you as someone who's coming in to work for them. But it's also important for the leader to take a notice of this when you have someone from a different... This is all about curiosity. In the end, it's all about being curious.
Kristina Roppelt
Exactly. I'd like to highlight and maybe, again, calm down the people who are now worrying and panicking on the other side of the line listening to us and thinking, Oh, no, that probably means that it's going to be too stressful, too frustrating. Why on Earth leaving your comfort zone and going to another country where anything can be different as Christina and Paul have just said, I'd like to just give a little story to illustrate the idea that curiosity can really save the day and explain that, in fact, it's very, very important not only to not set expectations about the normality. But it's also very, very important to speak, ask, be curious, clarify, and raise the points about the things that don't seem normal to you. Not in a It means that you are demanding things to be different. Hey, you should give me a gift on my birthday, no matter how long you know me and no matter how close we are in a business environment. But it's more like, Hey, and what's your tradition of celebrating your colleague's birthday? How do you usually do that? Can I learn more about this? The story goes as follows. There was a friend's colleague, not my personal acquaintance, but I trust the source, who came from Belarus and worked for a German company under an American manager. Again, here comes this very popular issue of feedback. They got a feedback onto their quarterly result sheet that said, solid work done. The Belarus coder got a bit confused about that feedback because they have read about the feedback style that the Americans usually have. They clarified that and came to a manager specifically and asked, Hey, I just wanted to clarify what exactly can be improved and what exactly are the things that you think might be done better next time? Because I assume there are certain things that I can improve, judging by this little phrase that I have received on my sheet. The American manager was so surprised to understand that the person came up to them that, put a long story short, the person was promoted while de facto, at that point of time, the resignation contract was being repaired for them. The person was almost on the verge of being fired. But their curiosity and the further conversation that has opened up, and the conversation that has opened up and been elevated to their HR, and the whole discussion that has been opened about their methods of work, the work has been done, et cetera, has come to the point that the methods of work from this specific Belarus person were reassessed, reevaluated, the value has been recognized, and the person has actually been promoted. So As a matter of fact, as I told you, there is never right or wrong method of doing that unless it's specifically stated in your communication policies or in your organizational, let's say, foundation papers or any specific policies and guidelines in your organization. If that's not there, then it's always important to come and speak. Again, with the perspective of curiosity and with the perspective of how do you You usually do that here. What's the best way? Can you recommend me? May I clarify a little bit more about this? I'm completely new to this. This disclaimers are extremely helpful. If you use this wording, it can actually bring you a world of good. So don't just sit there suffering in the corner about not being appreciated enough by your peers who just gave you a tiny little gift voucher for your birthday. Instead, come up and speak about or write about that or clarify in any way that is convenient to you. I understand that sometimes it's very challenging to stand up and say, Hey, I noticed you guys are doing that a little differently. What's your way of doing this? If that's challenging, Start with a tiny message in a messenger to your colleague that you trust the most. Talk to your HR, talk to your business partner, speak to your mentors, maybe initiate a little conversation over lunch. But don't just sit there accumulating frustration and annoyance about the whole situation. That's not good for your health. No.
Paul Arnesen
I think it's important what you mentioned there about guidelines and handbooks about how the organization is working because Cross-cultural management practices is really not part of a handbook for an organization, but we can put it maybe under diversity and inclusion or something, equity and inclusion. It might be something in there. But if you are looking up this information in their handbook, you might never find anything. But you can try to look on the DEI segment if they have something like that. That's coming more and more now. It's becoming more and more normal, but that's not cross-cultural practice. That is more just general equality in the workplace and diversity, appreciation in that sense. Just want to mention that. I was also thinking now we talked about this expectations, and sometimes expectations can lead to misconceptions, because misconception is something that I've realized many times. I talk to a lot of people about expecting something and then realizing that's not the reality when you come to a new culture. For example, you might feel that every German is very serious at work and they never smile and they never do anything for fun, which is obviously not true. But you might feel that just because you don't know the culture well enough or that the American, all of them are very competitive and you're just going to be beaten down on unless you deliver on the results all the time. It's not true for everyone. Obviously, some cultures have a lot of things that is really true to them, but they're also sometimes not that true. Do you have any specific misconceptions that you heard about? Maybe we can look into some misconception that is really not true, or maybe there's some misconceptions that are true or experiences, expectations that are true. In your words, what do you say?
Kristina Roppelt
Sure. That's a very good question. I love it. I would suggest that it's extremely important to understand that there are multiple layers that influence a certain organizational culture or a certain team's culture or a certain person's culture. I think it's a topic for a whole different separate episode to speak about all those layers of your country culture, of your local areas culture, of your ethnic culture, of your religious culture, of your multiple, multiple, multiple other cultures, including even your professional culture. Lawyers all over the world have certain characteristics that teachers all over the world don't share. Putting that aside, I should say that there are several misconceptions that I commonly encounter when it comes to the work with multicultural teams that I conduct. Speaking of the challenges that are found in the guidelines in the handbooks of a company under the DEI section, I commonly recommend to my clients, and we work on that together with them, to put certain communication tips and recommendations and expectations into their communication policies, which can also help you a lot in a multicultural team. If you specify what's the way to provide feedback, what's the way to approach your manager, what's the way to give feedback to a peer, what's the way to consult upon a certain specific challenge? That can be also done there. Do not give up on that. If it's not there, you can always initiate the inclusion of this points, clauses into a handbook. Speaking of the misconceptions, let me approach this question from a little unusual perspective. But being a woman, I very often hear a question from my female clients about their travels, business travels, or their work proposals from some countries that are known to be not very gender-equal countries, let's put it this way. I have some clients when the ladies, business leaders, go to China, when they go to Saudi Arabia, when they go to the United Arab Emirates, sometimes even when they go to India or Sri Lanka, they ask me questions like, Am I going to be respected? Am I going to be treated equally? Am I going to face some discrimination? Am I going to do this and that? In many instances, they are extremely worried about their situation, so worried that very often as a consultant, I receive a question, Should I bring my subordinate instead of going myself? Because they are an older male and that probably will be more efficient if a male representative from our company comes and does this project for us, et cetera. I should say that it is extremely important to note, over weight the perception of gender inequality in such countries. First and foremost, let's refer our listeners to the part number one of our podcast episode and learn a little bit more about the actual data and statistics. Very often, the data and the misconceptions that you have are really outdated. What you know about China is probably what you have read about China somehow, I don't know, 20, 15 years ago. There's a fantastic book by a Swedish professor, Hans Rossling, called Factfulness. If you haven't come across that book, I highly recommend it. It's all about how our misconceptions about different cultures and societies are based on old data. I recommend you to update your data anytime you go on to such an multicultural journey. I'd like to say that in many different instances, the experience that the women get in these cultures, we can actually call them in many in many cases, patriarchal cultures, and we wouldn't be wrong to say so. In many cases, their experience is actually quite positive. We have to say that there are certain tips and certain recommendations that women are expected to follow in these cultures. But Because they come as a foreigner, it is very often happening that they are perceived out of the local social norm. It's my recommendation to all women who listen to this podcast, do not take it very easily and do not perceive that all over the world, women's rights are treated in the same fashion as perhaps in your country, but do not over-scare yourself about the potential opportunities for you in the other culture. Another Another very typical misconception that I also perceive is about lack of punctuality and the so-called flexible timing in multiple countries of Asia or South America or Northern Africa. A lot of my clients also come with the question like, What should I do if my Moroccan colleague comes 2 hours later to a meeting? Or what if my Indonesian partners or my Indonesian leaders are going to be coming 90 minutes later for the calls or something? Is that going to be true? Is that something that really happens? In many In different instances, it's again not exactly the case because the industries that we're talking about are usually progressive industries. We're not talking about some, let's say, rural areas, governmental institutions somewhere far away in the middle of Java. We're very often talking startups. We're very often talking about IT, progressive companies. We're very often talking about internationally influenced organizations. It is not as bad as you think. It's probably not going to be German punctuality because we started with the German misconceptions. But very often, the global norms of meeting, conduction, or the global norms of respecting each other's times have already influenced different cultures more than you expect. So be cautious, beware of that, but don't over-scare yourself with such misconceptions. No.
Paul Arnesen
The last example with time is something I have experienced a lot. And I know from Italy that a lot of people, especially in professional settings, they like to be on time. They want to be perceived as professional and being on time is professional, but maybe personally, it's not the same. So it's also important to distinguish what people do outside of work and what they do at work, because as you said, there's a global norm of what is good business ethics and practices that is very different from... So you can have a friend who is always late to party, but when it comes to work, they're always in time. So there's It's always important to understand those things. And also I want to add a little tip here that actually I used a lot when I'm assisting people in recruitment processes. I've done quite a lot, is that it actually helps sometimes to understand a business and a specific culture by going to their website or LinkedIn and look at the people that work there to have an understanding of the setup of the team. Is it like you mentioned, maybe a large majority of men that work there? Is there a good mix of people from different backgrounds. You can see that in the picture of the people that work there, but also the way they dress, especially if you go to a website about us page, look at the pictures they have on their profile. You can tell you a lot about how they want to be perceived. You can have an understanding before you move there or go for a meeting to see this is a very formal company. All the pictures are with a tie, so you might want to dress up formally if you go there. If they're more relaxed, you can dress more relaxed. You can do a lot of these preparations. If your conception is that you're going to go to a meeting in a culture, say in Italy, where fashion, you have a bella figura with a good dress all the time, and you look at their website and they all look like they're like, typical- Hoodies. Yeah, hoodies, right? Of course, you'll be the weird one coming, looking like a... Coming to the Oscar gala, right? So this is something that I think is very important that you can... The same as we talked, there is preparation, reading up, understanding. Look at the company's website. If they have a picture of the people that work there, you can get a good understanding of how they are.
Kristina Roppelt
So true. One other very good tip, and happy to freely share that with our listeners, is when you are prepping for an international interview, it's extremely helpful if you already know who's going to be your interviewer, your potential boss, for instance, to also look through the videos on YouTube or on the other sources with this specific person. This has actually helped several of my clients immensely because knowing what exactly is the style of the communication for this specific person, what are the business agendas that they're caring about, that they're worried about, that they raise during their business interviews is extremely helpful. I understand that that may not be the case with a small startup, but if you're applying to a bigger organization, if you plan to work in a big corporate organization, that can be enormously helpful, especially if this specific person is not exactly a perfect stereotypical example from this specific nation or ethnic group or whatever. You might think that this specific Chinese person will be very, let's say, reserved and shy and very conservative in a sense, but they might end up being a Chinese person who were raised in America, very relaxed, very indulgent, very easygoing. They probably would expect a maybe similar attitude from you if they want to recruit you into your team. Just to give a quick disclaimer to all of those who were touched by this tuxedo gala style of dressing that Paul give in the example, I want to say that knowing about the expectations in a specific team or in a specific company or in a specific culture doesn't mean that you need to change yourself to fit in. That is extremely important. This is what I hear a lot as criticism to intercultural consultants as if they are trying to break their clients, to change their personality, to make them adjust 100%, 150% to the new team that they're going to join, that they should dress differently, speak differently, approach time management differently, et cetera, et cetera. That's actually not the case. I have a fantastic example of my Russian friend who went to Denmark to work here, and he's always wearing a formal tuxet all the time, no matter where he goes. He just loves a bow very formal attire, and he looks very, very different from the majority of the Danes who are wearing hoodies and ripped jeans, as you say, very relaxed style of dressing. Nobody values him less for that. Nobody appreciates him less for that. Nobody sees him as a weird, or at least this was my understanding and the communication when I saw him. It's just his particular personality feature. This is what makes him stand out. But what I'm talking about is not changing changing yourself. What I'm talking about is being prepared, and this is important. It's extremely, let's say, it's critically important for both your business success and your mental stability, I would put it this way. Knowing things doesn't mean that you will be putting them onto you immediately and in the way you see copy pasting from the people around. It's just being better prepared. That's all I want to say.
Paul Arnesen
And that's what's your tip number one earlier. To prepare yourself because it puts you in a mental mode. If you see someone dressed in a specific way, you can just think that, Okay, this is a little bit more formal than I had expected. And then you're prepared for that. You don't have to dress a specific way. And I think it's also important to mention, there are very generational differences now. We are not living in the '60s and '70s and even the '80s anymore. So people are more open for a little bit of flair and flexibility, and it's fun to be a little bit different. So that's But that's age, again, that's another thing just to prepare about. Are the person you're talking to very young or are they a senior? It's always the same thing. Preparation is the thing we want to talk. We have to take into consideration.
Kristina Roppelt
Sure. For those of our listeners who are worried if they have prepared well enough, there's probably never enough of preparation. When it comes to intercultural communication, at some certain point of time, you just need to put a hard stop on that and say, Well, I am who I am. I appreciate myself. The most important thing is that I respect the other people. I have curiosity towards what they do and who they are. And as long as I'm staying respective, open-minded, curious, and flexible, that's probably a good of a starting pack for any international traveler or any international worker to join a new environment. So don't, again, overcharge yourself too much. I think my motto for this podcast would be relax and enjoy. That's the biggest recommendation I can make into many of my clients.
Paul Arnesen
And my personal opinion is that it's much more fun to learning by doing. So when you go to a new culture, you're going to learn so much more than you will ever read in any textbook. That's the thing. You can read about a lot of stuff, which is probably true, but sometimes your experience of coming to a new culture will be very different from what you had expected. So it's It's just about taking time and enjoying the process. Sure.
Kristina Roppelt
And leaving some space for this adaptation period, because I know unfortunate cases when people were even well-prepared or even coming to a country that they've already visited, not a complete newbies, some experienced professionals who came to a new country, immediately signed up for language courses, joined a theatrical studio, adopted a dog, made three different to networking meetings with the fellow expat professionals and overloaded themselves so much with all sorts of very natural things that are fine and great to do to relax in the evening. But forgetting that this adaptation, the flexibility and the observation of the new practices takes a lot of mental space. It actually takes a lot of your energy, even if it's not very visible. But being cautious and listening to other people, fine-tuning Getting to the new practices, understanding the way lead and follow, and learning how to adjust, especially in time-flexible cultures, as I said, especially when the cultures were overworking, is probably a typical situation. This is something that takes much more time and energy than you expect. So give yourself some rest. We could all leave this time a little bit less busy and less occupied. So give yourself a chance to accommodate it nicely. And we're not talking about weeks, we're probably talking about months. So, yeah, don't overcharge yourself too much.
Paul Arnesen
We've been addressing a lot of, say, we can call them the potential employees that are moving around. What tips or strategies would you give? We don't have to talk too much about this, but to leaders, facilitating international teams or integrating international people into a teams. Any specific tips and strategies you will recommend to them?
Kristina Roppelt
Sure. Let's make it short, as you say, to not go deeply into details.
Paul Arnesen
They will also be very interconnected with the other thing because it's very similar.
Kristina Roppelt
Absolutely. But on top of that, I would say it's critically important to understand whether this is a new team that you are creating from the scratch, and you are there in the position to establish the new norms, as we said. Certain protocols, certain expectations, communication policies, may Maybe onboarding policies for your HR that you are specifically writing for this new team that you're creating or for this new startup, for this new business. Or you're in the position when you inherited a team from somebody or a department from somebody and you already have a certain mixed team or people are joining the existing team, that becomes a little bit more tricky. I would say, evaluate the context, and if there is a starting point for your international team journey, this is a really great place to establish certain expectations that concerns with, again, the things that we've mentioned, decision making, feedback providing, time management expectations, informal/informal communications, working hours, and many other things that are important and could be easily addressed in certain recommendations and policies. When it comes to already existing teams or the ones that are incorporating new people on the go, I would suggest it's never a bad idea to align the values of the people who work in the same space, which can be done in different ways.
Kristina Roppelt
It could be done as a nice team event as a part of your informal communication. That can be done as a formal educational event, educational plus entertainment event. This can be done as a part of team building, and there are many different strategies and formats and games to do in in order to understand what your colleagues appreciate, what they value, what they don't like, what they literally hate, what they find as their priority. It will be a marvelous journey, believe me, for all the teams that I've been working with when they decided to align their values in this fashion that has always been extremely eye-opening. For instance, it turned out that a part of the team extremely appreciated quality time after work with their colleagues. For instance, Asian people are very commonly known for spending Friday evenings out together in a bar after work and stuff like that, whilst another part of the team found that it was extremely important to leave work immediately after the end of the business day and rush to see their families. There was obviously a misalignment in the values and in the expectations. I'm not saying that you should quickly and dramatically start implementing to follow the expectations of one side of the team or the other. But it's at least good to know the starting point where the misalignment happens. From that moment on, after doing this little audit, you can move on and further on solve if this is the issue that prevents you from working efficiently, or maybe it doesn't. Maybe it's not something that bothers the team too much. So that's the thing. Another important tip is, of course, whenever there is an issue or a conflict, I believe that a leader should always create space for a safe conversation about that. So it is critically important to give people an opportunity and a hint that whenever there is a challenge, discomfort, misunderstanding, or even a conflict, there is always a certain safe space. It doesn't matter. It can be in a form of a red button, a special link, anonymous poll, or a quarterly meeting with your HR. There is safe space to talk about it because I know some team even here in Scandinavia, where leaders say, Intercultural is bullshit, pardon my French here, and this is nothing to do with people's past cultural experiences. This is all about your performance. If you're unhappy with something That's probably the issue of your performance or the performance of your colleagues. Let's say, Shut up and let's keep working. That's what the approach is. I say it's critically important to have some space, specifically designed or some time or some opportunity to raise the issues that bother you in a safe, anonymous, and non-judgmental way. Let's put it this way. Third is, as a leader, I just say you always lead by doing, set an example by not, let's say, again, breaking people's typical patterns of communicating, working, leading, providing feedback, but rather by suggesting more inclusion inclusive patterns. If somebody finds it very hard to hear feedback about their work in an open room with other people around them, is that going to be less valuable if, for instance, we exchange feedback in the written form? If that's something more inclusive for everybody, is that going to hurt the processes? Or maybe it's going to be equally fine if we are just switching to another format that's acceptable for everybody and makes everybody more comfortable. Maybe it's not, but it's just suggestion. So whenever you as a leader have a chance to respect other expectations, to respect other cultural patterns, there is always a way to go. But of course, it's important to not forget about your business perspective. We're all here to do some work. It's important for us to prioritize the success of our business processes. However, sometimes it's just literally impossible if your people are unhappy or feel frustrated.
Paul Arnesen
I also want to add on that. One of the things that as a leader, you have to do, and that's true for any monocultural or multicultural team, is conversations. You need to start a relationship by speaking to people because you can learn. You should throw all the misconceptions out the door from the beginning and then try to start with the person from scratch and try to understand what they really want and how they feel and how they react to things. And be curious. Again, we talk about curiosity a lot. It's all about the awareness. And because there are people coming in to work for you, they're all nervous, they're all insecure. It doesn't matter if you're 30 years of experience. If you're The other one who's the senior, they still want to either impress you or do good with you. It doesn't matter if they're from a egalitarian culture. If you think they're American, they're going to be really gung-ho salespeople. They're still nervous. They still have feelings and emotions. So empathy is really the key here as well. And so I think that if you don't talk to them and you just push your way forward, that this is the way we do it here, that's where the conflicts will happen. So you can start Start the relationship with a small conversation. Let's talk about you. Let's talk about me, and you set some expectations from the beginning. And that's going to make the relationship much easier.
Kristina Roppelt
That's easy to, let's say, recommend that. But I also want to recognize that it's really hard for many people, for the majority of the people to conduct these conversations. It's very hard to initiate those conversations. And I just want to send my support to all those who have tried and maybe failed, who have tried and it didn't yield any results. I just want to, let's say, motivate people to try and do it again. Maybe second time, third time is going to be easier. Very likely that it's going to be easier because as any skill, this is all a matter of practice, and it makes perfect. Unless you practice these conversations, you're never going to learn how to make them nice and easy. Of course, with some cultures, it's going to be a bit easier than with the others. Maybe personally for you, some cultures are going to be more approachable than the others, but that's not the reason to leave the other cultures behind. So yeah, thank you for bringing the word empathy. This has been definitely not mentioned many times enough on my speech, and I would definitely like to put it on top of everything. Yeah, being empathic and being open for these challenging conversations, never easy, but kudos to those who try, fail, and try again.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah, I can give you a little example of how it actually works in companies that do just to have an understanding how difficult it is as well, because companies that want to hire a diverse workforce, for example, can be International people can just be that they want to have more women in certain roles and all that, or people with disabilities in certain roles. Usually what happens is that I've been working on project where we are basically the person, one of the persons in an interview will be coached a little bit in advance to learn about it, to have an open mind and understanding. This is also a little bit about generational aspects of things. So as a leader, it's also helpful to have someone sitting next to you if you are in a conversation where you're maybe not used to having that conversation with someone, that you have someone who is more familiar with talking to someone and understanding. And on the opposite side, if you're the employee sitting in the other side the table, you will be nervous. But if you can go in there with, I say, try to have an open mind and say that this is just a conversation where we're just going to talk about myself. It's like if you already signed a contract and you have the job, at least they can fire you for what you talk about in that call. Hopefully, that's not going to happen. So it's all about the companies that do this well, they recognize that there is a two sides of this story. There's the leader who is seen as the senior and will have some power distance. That's true for all culture, even though some have more higher power distance than others. And there's a person on the other side who is an employee who just want to impress and be accepted. So this is where empathy really has to come in. And companies that do that well, they have a program for this. They try to facilitate this, and you can learn from those and say, Okay, if I can't do this alone because I don't have the experience, who can I bring on with me in that meeting that can help me to be more curious? And then you can learn from that. Definitely.
Kristina Roppelt
And very often, this second or third person in the room is an HR or someone responsible for recruitment. But at the same time, a very common practice is bringing an external facilitator or a mediator, even, depending on the approach that you're choosing. That happens sometimes that with an external person in the room, a lot of challenges are being smoothed out because in order for an external person to understand the situation, both sides of the conversation to explain from the start. This is where a lot of clarity comes in. But I think we can totally speak a lot about the facilitation and mediation techniques throughout many minutes and hours. But let's just highlight that there is also an option and a possibility. You shouldn't be there alone in this journey, especially if you don't have huge experience of working in this multicultural environment. That can be definitely a challenge, I should say amongst many of my clients, I have top executives, I have very recognized professionals, and many of them share that across their corporate journey, managing an international team or an intercultural team, these are different things, by the way, has always been one of the biggest issues, one of the biggest, let's say, challenges, yes, I can put it this way, on their path. Let's not underestimate how difficult it can be even for very experienced leaders.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah, no, absolutely. I've I've seen it. I talk to people that have 40 years of work experience, but they have no experience in doing interviews with someone from a different culture. So this happens all the time. It's always good to have someone to help you. You're never alone. There's a lot of resources out there that is happy to help, even externally. So I think it's good to mention that. Anyway, I don't really have any other questions on my list here for today, Christina. Do you have anything you want to say, anything you want to add before we end? Anything on your mind you want to mention to the listeners?
Kristina Roppelt
Yeah, I just want to highlight that after having listened to our podcast, a lot of our audience might think that, wow, that's really amazing, exciting, but at the same time, very challenging. Should we really risk it? Is it really worth it investing a lot of energy, investing a lot of time into trying to apply into a foreign team? Or should I try to lead a foreign team? Should I recruit somebody from a foreign team? Is that going to bring me more pain than advantages? Well, I'm a big advocate of whatever international experience you might get. I'm a big advocate of intercultural teams myself. And of course, I'm very biased because this is my passion, this is my curiosity, and I'll always be there to advocate for mixed teams. However, there's a very clear, academically proven statement that the more diverse the teams are, the more creative powerful they become, especially if it's not all about routine operational tasks. Their monocultural teams work definitely much better. But if we're speaking about some challenging, some demanding, some creative jobs or projects to be completed, then a mixed team is definitely much more agile and much more resilient. In general, it's just like having pencils of different color on your palette to create a certain picture. It's probably very It's very convenient if you know 50 Shades of Gray, pardon my joke, or 50 Shades of Green or 50 Shades of Blue, doesn't matter. But it becomes so much more colorful and interesting if you add more colors to your palette. It feels like people who are closing up themselves from working with the representatives of a different culture and just sticking to one color. Let's try to explore. There are so many colors in the palette, and you can definitely benefit from either drawing this picture or being a part of this beautiful carpet with multiple threads. For those who are still in doubts, I would definitely recommend giving it a try.
Paul Arnesen
Absolutely. I think that today we are living in such a global world where there's global movement of people and we can work remotely, we can move easily around, we can go on expat missions for three months, we can go for day trips to work in different... You can go on an airplane and one hour in a different countries, especially in Europe. It's just the today companies and people that want to explore the world through work, there's a lot of more opportunities today. I think that newer companies today, I see a lot of startups, they're not afraid of hiring people from different cultures, and so you shouldn't be afraid either. So they have a better understanding now that this is something that is just the reality of the world we are moving into. We are developing a better cultural understanding. We are more acceptance of each So although we talked about the strategies and tips and tricks and maybe some risks, but there's a lot of opportunities here. And I think that that's the most important thing that we want you to be left with when you listen to this, that don't be worried There's a lot of people like Christina out there. She's helping the companies. She's talking to people that are in this industry and different industries and interest. So people are getting educated every day. And so there's a lot of opportunities there.
Kristina Roppelt
Just to recognize the challenges that people meet when they come from the countries with, let's call them weaker passports. For them, it might be more challenging to get a visa and get a position abroad because we know many employers are reluctant to hire people who might experience challenge in getting a work visa or a work permit, unlike the European passports or the American Canadian passports, which allow you to travel relatively free. I still want to say that there are multiple digital nomad visas available these days. Look, even Japan has launched one, which is incredible. The most ethnic country in the world has finally come to the conclusion that they also need this practice. It's true that the world is getting more and more open despite the fact that some countries might be experiencing certain closures. Still, twice kudos to the people from these countries who still give it a try, venture to something bigger, and overcome those difficulties. Let's not forget that as well and see beyond the box, let's say. Seek other opportunities. Maybe that's not a work visa at the moment. Maybe that's your freelance contract from a different country that gives you an opportunity for a digital nomad visa. Or something like that. So explore and hope that the intercultural luck will be on your side.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah. Thank you very much. In the end, stay curious and just be out there and have an interest. And you never know what company eventually will hire you, or you never know if you're a manager or an owner of a startup who will join your team that could be an exceptional asset from a country you never would imagine hiring from because you might think, Okay, I'm just going to hire from my own country. But you never know what that's going to bring like we talked about. This color palette, people and just experiences. Well, thank you, Christina. That was it. I think that we have so much knowledge, so much valuable content. I'm very We're happy for this conversation. What's the plan for your rest of the day now? Anything fun in Denmark?
Kristina Roppelt
For the moment, well, I have a plan to continue working and finish my day maybe with a swimming pool. But Tomorrow, I'm starting my second level course on theatrical improvisation. It's called Improvisation Comedy. This is a fantastic intercultural experience I'm actually getting because I have a very mixed group of students, which who all study together. We do this theatrical improvisation in a super mixed group. Mostly, they're expats, not just the Danes. We all speak English. For the majority of us, it's a foreign language. The beauty of improvisation is that it's playing around the things, concepts, let's say, reactions and associations that come first to your mind. You can easily see how different associations come to mind of people from different backgrounds. This is a fantastic research field for me. I can't stop making notes after I come back from every class. Yeah, it's just a great experience. I love I'm looking forward to.
Paul Arnesen
I love that. An introvert like me will probably not like it at first, but I'll get used to it.
Kristina Roppelt
Yeah. A lot of introverts are actually finding that extremely helpful.
Paul Arnesen
Exactly.
Kristina Roppelt
Yeah. If we're done with the recording, I just think we can stop the recording Are we ready here?
Paul Arnesen
Yes, we are finished. Thank you very much, everyone, for listening in. And I hope you find this episode valuable. Just a quick note, if you're still listening, the episode will be on my website, paularns. Com. Christina is also going to share it eventually on her channel, so make sure that you follow. Just before we end, Christina, where can people reach you, get in touch with you? What's your favorite place for them to contact you?
Kristina Roppelt
Sure. The first way to contact me would be LinkedIn. As Paul mentioned, the episode is also going to be available on my YouTube channel, and we're currently updating my website. So hopefully by the time the episode is live, we're also going to have my newly refreshed, three-branded website. These are the three main areas where you can find me. Of course, email me and text me as also an option. But again, many, many thanks, Paul, for giving me this opportunity for your fantastically crafted questions and for the work that you have already done. I appreciate that.
Paul Arnesen
Thank you very much, Christina. All the notes you will find in the show notes of the episode, the email and everything, contact details to Christina, you'll find it. So thank you very much, Christina. Enjoy the rest of your day in Denmark.
Kristina Roppelt
Thank you. Bye-bye.
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