Paul Arnesen
Hello, Andrea. Welcome to the Working with Us podcast. So great to have you with me today. How are you?
Andrea Fleischfresser
I'm doing fantastic. Thank you for having me.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah, I know that you are Brazilian. You're not talking to me from Brazil now. You are sitting in the US, as far as I understand. We can go into that later if it's something we want to talk about. Obviously, for me, we are talking about a culture that is a lot of people from Brazil, and they move around the world. There's a diaspora that people live everywhere. You're one of them. You've been living many, many places. But I want to start with one thing that I learned after living in Actually, I learned that not that many years ago when I met a lot of Brazilians is that your last name, which I would say is, or the German pronunciation, is a very typical German last name. And I learned that there is a huge population in Brazil with German-sounding last names. So I don't know, can you give me a little bit of insights into that phenomena or whatever happened there in historical companies, maybe.
Andrea Fleischfresser
Absolutely. I'm so glad that you asked that because this is one of the most common misunderstanding that people look surprised to me, even when I say that I'm Brazilian, because there is a stereotype for some reason of the Brazilian being most people with brown and dark skin. But as you know, Brazil is such a huge country. There is so many cultures inside of one country. So we cannot say that all Brazilians looks in some way because we really are a mix of cultures and identities. So I'm from the south of Brazil. My city is Curitiba, in the state of Paraname. And in the history, even though Brazil was colonized from Portugal and have all the Portuguese history after the 1500, 1600 and so on. In the 1900s, beginning of 1900s, I imagine even late 1800, so many European people came to Brazil to start a new life. The first round of immigration, like happened even here in United States. I'm located in United States. So as you mentioned, my last name is German. This is my maiden name, my dad's last name, because in the south of Brazil, there is a big population of German descendants, as well as Italian descendants, Polish, and even, I don't know how many people know about this, Japanese descendants.
Andrea Fleischfresser
We have a huge population of Japanese Japanese. And very interesting the way I grew up and the way we are as Brazilians, that we don't see this as a difference. You are Polish, you are Japanese, or you are Italian. For us, everyone is Brazilian. So this was a big cultural shock. I'm just moving a little bit. But when I moved to Europe, then I start to see these differences. Because in Brazil, we see everyone as Brazilian, even though we have a different cultural background from family descendants.
Paul Arnesen
It's actually interesting when I was looking into the Brazilian culture before this conversation, and I started to think about something that in cross-cultural practices and learning about cross-cultural communication and management, that you have different cultural traits. For example, you mentioned the Japanese, which I know there is a huge population of that move from Japan to Brazil. Seeing that Japan, for example, is such a distinct culture, like a very high context, all those things. Is it also that they say, do they bring with them that cultural trait? Does the German bring the German... Are they German descendant in Brazil a little bit different than a non-German descendant? I'm talking very nuanced here, obviously. But is there any differences within the culture that you can see from where your parents taught you or maybe your grandparents taught you or something like that?
Andrea Fleischfresser
Very interesting question. I would say so. Again, even though at the end of the day, we are very mixed. I have friends that are, for example, Japanese descendants and also some Libanese and also Middle Eastern. We can find a lot in Brazil as well. That it brings some of these characteristics of the local culture. But at the same way, Brazil bring a lot of this mix that sometimes people have mis understand or have this misconception. So as you know in the cross-culture, at the end, very much the South American as Brazil, Asian, and even Middle Eastern, we are very much, even though it's so far from each other, we are very relationship culture. At the end, we bring this along with some differences. So this is what even in the workplace organizations and meetings, if you want to go more in a professional side, this is what is very important in a Brazil culture, being very relationship-based culture. Of course, the Italian descendants will bring very much more of this Italian way of big family, big dinners, big approach to family-oriented Japanese descendants. They are very hard worker. They are very committed, very hard worker, as the Japanese nowadays are as a culture.
Andrea Fleischfresser
Germans, like me, even though descendants, I mean, Even though I was not born in German, I don't speak German. But some people would say that I have, I don't know if it's the DNA or something, that I bring something of this German. So I don't know if this has answered your question, but I believe there is a mix and some identity that each one of us bring from our Kutra background.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah. And I don't think there's really an answer to the question. It's more like it's an interesting observation, I think, because culture is so dynamic. It's really nothing you can put the finger on and say. And obviously, what we do in this podcast is that we're trying to a little bit, but I think for such a big country like Brazil, it's difficult to say, this is our culture, this is how we all are. Although there are traits, obviously, that will be true for no matter where you're coming from. I actually spent a lot of time in Brazil. Actually, a few months, I lived in Rio de Janeiro. I remember really clearly that there was this family-oriented way way of living because the friends I had, it was all about a lot of meeting for dinners and social activities. They were very open to talk about themselves and get to know you really well. But at the same time, you come to a point where maybe that's, Okay, now I shared enough. So now we just have to get to the next level of our relationship. I also read about this just before this conversation about What is called the peach culture, opposite of a coconut culture, where you have an openness to...
Paul Arnesen
If you sit next to someone on the bus, they might start talking to you, you might interact with them. But then in the end, when you come to the pit of the peach, the hard shell in the middle, that's where it's difficult to come close to someone from a Brazilian culture, which I think is true for everyone, regardless of background background, the historical. I don't know if you have any comment or something on that peach culture aspect.
Andrea Fleischfresser
Yeah, I would use more the peach concept to express more the American culture here, United States, if I may, which is very more like the Americans need this, as we say, the space, the person of space. So this is idea of American, the way they relate with people at work, even in the neighborhood. It's very, Hi, how are you? It's so good to see you. But there is a personal space. Brazilians, I'm not sure. I understand your point of view, where you were coming from seeing Brazil as a beach. As Brazil, it would say that I don't know exactly a fruit that we can compare right now, but we are known for being very warm and welcoming people. I remember a few years ago, I went to Rio de Janeiro with my parents and my kids, and we went just to the beach. There was a food truck when the family I was also renting the beach chairs. The first day, I went there with just my mom and my kids. The guy starts talking with me and very friendly, but it's okay. Maybe two days after, we went back to the same place with my dad.
Andrea Fleischfresser
The first day, my dad was not there. I remember that day like it was yesterday. The guy saw me and he opened his arms and said, You are back. This is the dad. And hug my dad and hug me and start to play with my kids. So of course, this is not like you become a friend of the person. But the way we receive and welcoming people, it's very warm. I cannot say another word. I lived in Italy, as you know, for many years in Europe. Even though Italy is known for being very nice and friendly, etc. But there is this relationship more transactional. And resilient people will see, and I would say even in the professional side, organizations or even any different professional relationship, I would say, doctor visitors and things like that, is very much more personal, more warm.
Paul Arnesen
Thank you for verifying that because one of the things that we are trying to do here is to actually look at some of the conception or even a misconception about culture, because what I talked about the peach, it actually comes from, I would say, one of the top 10 textbooks books about cross-cultural dynamics, where they talk about US and Brazil being peach cultures. This is really why this conversation is valuable, because when you think about it, you can't really compare the same as you say, because it's a different type of thinking. Yeah. No, that's brilliant. Thank you very much for that. Okay, let's move on a little bit. There's a lot of things I would like to speak about in the historical context Obviously, as South America, that region of the world is mostly a lot of Spanish-speaking countries. From the 300, 400 years ago when the Portuguese and the Spanish conquered everything and settled down. Brazil ended up being a Portuguese colony. Then due to circumstances, they eventually split to be two separate nations. It evolved into its own culture. But from my experience, obviously, living both in Portugal and in Brazil with friends, both Portuguese and Brazilian, I see similarities.
Paul Arnesen
But at the same time, I see many, many differences. I see things that is really one of them. It actually was confirmed, at least from my understanding, from one of the textbooks on one of the indexes that is mentioned a lot about uncertainty avoidance, which is from me living in Portugal, understanding that in Portuguese culture, Portugal as a country, there's really not that many major international global companies, for example. They have a very... It seems to me, at least from understanding it, that they're a little bit afraid of, not afraid, but reluctant to do new things. They want to keep it the way it is and be calm. But if you look at Brazil, they are much more open to explore. There's a lot of big international companies coming out of Brazil. There's a lot of industries there that are global. I guess it comes from a country that was where the adventurous people came in and developed some culture. I don't know if you have anything to say about if you agree with me or disagree with me. What do you want to...
Andrea Fleischfresser
Absolutely. So if we go back to the history, you said very correctly. In the 1500, Spanish and Portuguese came to South America. But different than North America, let's go back, different than North America, where people came, the first pilgrims that came to North America came to colonize, to start a new life, Portuguese and Spanish came to South America to explore. So the idea was not to stay in the North America, but the idea of the Portuguese and the Spanish was to take the gold, the money, the rich, and go back to their own countries. Or what was very common, especially for the Portugal, that they stayed, they brought their monarchies at the time, like the Prince and Kings, whatever. It's not a king, but I think it's Prince. Is those people were not well known in Portugal. So the people that the Portugal at that time want to get rid of, they was like, say, go to Brazil and then go there. To fast forward, as we mentioned in the beginning, we became this big mix of culture that differentiate a a lot from the other South American cultures, which they are set them apart for just speaking in Spanish.
Andrea Fleischfresser
And for us to be in such a big country with so many natural resources and huge, vast. So as I said, global companies start to come here Because one, there was places to build plants, and find also natural resources as well. People are very work harder. They really work hard. They need work. And of course, compared with other places, there was a low cost of the to pay. It's not so well. At the time, it was easy to have establishment in Brazil for cost and something else.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah. I get what you mean there.
Andrea Fleischfresser
I lost my train of thought.
Paul Arnesen
It's okay. No worries. It shows, for me, at least, an ambitious people. Obviously, just from historical context, it was the nature of the people that came there. Interestingly enough, many cultures have this people because they were used to be colonies. And the first people that came there were the individualists that settled down in a Obviously, in Brazil, it wasn't an Indigenous tribe spread around. It wasn't really a country like many other places around the world. So they took everything they had and they built their culture. They built there. Obviously, it was some hints of French in there as well for a period of years and everything. But if we now take then think about everything you said now, and it's very interesting. We talk about all these different pockets of culture within Brazil that move their immigration, the vastness of the country in the size of it. How would you now think about someone who is going to now either go to Brazil to work or they get a Brazilian on their team and try to define a professional Brazilian in some sense because it's complicated. It doesn't really matter. But can we put some notes to a Brazilian professional?
Andrea Fleischfresser
Absolutely. I want to go back also for the uncertainty avoidance that you mentioned, because Portuguese and Brazilian are more Have this adventurous mindset, I would going back to the history and how we are seeing a Brazilian professional. So as I mentioned, again, we need to remind that Brazil is a very big country with so many cultures inside. As we are talking here is a very generically speaking. And Brazilian people, I would say they are very hard hard worker, dedicated and committed with their work. And one of the things that most people from Brazil, when they move, most of my clients are expats that move here to United States or any other country. One thing that they say is even think about work-life balance time. Brazilian people work a lot of hours because they are very dedicated to their companies. They are very loyal to their company. So one thing that they say, for example, for Americans or some others, and again, it is not good or bad, as you know, for culture I'm not... But because Brazil, Brazil is always doing a little bit more than it's requested. So they are very willing to stay more in hours or doing a new project or the Let's do this event.
Andrea Fleischfresser
So some coaches that is very well known and being very rigid with time. So if the 3:00, 4:00 PM is my time to go home, I will go home. This is it. This is my work life and this is my personal life. Brazil, they see this as all together. So the work-life balance is really a struggle. For Brazilians' family, for my friends, my family. They say, this is not really exist in our culture. One, because they are so loyal to their companies, to their work, that their work relationship became some a friendship. They become friends with people they work with. They hang out with people they work with. There will be happy hours, company parties, but they enjoy being. There is not such a separation between colleagues and personal friends. Then because the social issues, economical issues, if you have a job, you keep this job. I'm talking about more white colors educated people because there is a big difference also if you go more in a low classes and people do different jobs or maybe need to take three public transportation, two hours to go to their work. But anyhow, even though you are a white color, you are a very dedicated and even educated people, then you keep the job.
Andrea Fleischfresser
You work hard for stay in this company. So there is a very high level of loyalty for the company, for the employees. And they are, I would say, much talented. One of the things of Brazilian cultures, of Brazilian people, and going back to the history, when there is nothing here and people from the Portuguese, from the Europeans that came in the 1900s, they need to figure it out. So Brazilian people, they are very known for finding solutions. We say, the jeitinho brasileiro, I don't know if you heard this, because we find a way. I was talking with a client other that she's living and working here in United States. And she was talking exactly about these issues that she has, that she's saying to her Americans or team. And I'm not sure now if her team is all-American, but she was saying, You can do in this way as well. You can find this way. Why don't you think in this way? And the person was like, No, this is like this, so it goes like this. It's really, let's say, some cultures, it's really by the book, I would say. This is how it is, and this is how it should be.
Andrea Fleischfresser
Brazil I would say, it's totally everything but by the book. For some people, from some cultures, they see this, they struggle with this. Why you are not doing the way I'm doing? I'm telling, I told you why this is one of the things that Brazilian maybe is not for, the last minute. They are not good with timing. So But at the end, for in a Brazilian concept, we all do. Everything goes well. Like the Rui said, that's something that my mom used to say, that we used to say,. At the end, everything is go well. So even though there is bumps on the road, it's okay. We figured it out, and this going to happen. But for Some, again, coaches that's really more task-oriented, more direct in the communication. This way or being so high very flexible, adaptable, and also very multitasking as a high-context culture. Sometimes there are some misunderstanding or misconception to see this. One time, I remember one client, she is leading at the Accenture, the big Accenture working on a global project. She lives in United States, but she's actually from Bulgaria or something. But anyhow, one time she asked me, Andrea, how can I I hold Brazilians accountable?
Andrea Fleischfresser
The point is not that Brazilians are not good in their job or they don't do. They will do. But for some coaches, the way they see is that they are not doing because they take more time or they take everything for the last minute. So it's interesting to see the different perspectives.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah. And I think you just I answered one of the questions I had about, even though you have a German last name, you're not really German because the Germans will be the one with a rigid system like this and that. That's maybe a misconception when someone looks at you and thinking, I'm not saying you are, but you're probably more flexible than a German. But that's the thing that is interesting because you might start to think that, Oh, I'm going to do business with a company and the owner has a German last name. They're probably like me, a German mentality. Or the opposite with a Japanese surname and thinking they are very high context. Everything has to be by the book. Then all of a sudden, they have this, they have a very flexible way of thinking. It's interesting. This is fascinating. I think it clears up a lot of misconceptions, I think many can have just by looking at the name of someone.
Andrea Fleischfresser
And if I may, this is one of the things, or I would say the thing that make me so passionate about what I do, that I care about the work that I do, which is leadership development, working with leaders for global companies, et cetera. Because I went through the same when I lived in Europe, in When I say the same, it's this generalizing or judging people, like in my case, because Brazilians are like this, because you're Brazilians. Jokes that nowadays we can call even very much as an uncautious bias, I think, that At that time, it was really hard. I was trying to put... Like saying to myself, This is just a joke, but now we can name this. There is a level of discrimination or judgment that when people say, and this is not just about Brazilians, but they would say, for example, Oh, Americans are like this. Oh, Italians are like this or all East Europe or whatever it is. But my passion is really about making leaders see the human side of other, see the potential of the other human being behind the color of the skin, the identity, whatever you're holding of a judgment.
Andrea Fleischfresser
Sorry. Because I know how we heard being judged from your culture or your flow or even the color of your skin or many others. So we need to humanize this.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah, absolutely. And name, that's also one thing I think it's important to mention that the name you have for a lot of people, as a leader, they read a name, say on a job application, and they see that name has a connotation from a culture that they might have a stereotypical view of, and they might not go forward with that without even knowing the person. I think that one of the things that us that talk a lot about cultural differences, like nationalities and people, is that leaders need to see that there will always be some inner layer in terms of how you behave and how you react after this happening around you in a professional setting. But you as a leader is the one who has to take the initiative to learn and be aware, first of yourself, your inner workings and how you work. Then you use that as the guidance to learn about your team and the people around you, because it's very easy to put people in a and say, I want to have all Americans on my team. And if you don't have an American name, I can't hire you or something, that is really dangerous and I think really bad.
Andrea Fleischfresser
I agree 100 %. And we see this Very common here in the United States, I would say there's a lot of this happening in history, where we are open a new chapter, but with the Afro-American community or even the Asian-American community. I had many clients that shared with me that, let's say, a little bit in the past, I believe they are not doing this anymore. They had to change their names to sound like more American. Yeah.
Paul Arnesen
No, it's true everywhere, sadly. This is also true in the Scandinavian cultures. It's true even in Italy, Spain. I think as human beings, we are subjective. We judge people and things. It's fear-based, but it doesn't have to be like that just because nature maybe gave us this. But in the end, as you said, you have to be just open to wanting to learn, wanting to be open. That's a different chapter, as you said, to start that discussion, this conversation. Obviously, I would love to have that on a different podcast, maybe, because it's super fascinating.
Andrea Fleischfresser
Yes, it is.
Paul Arnesen
I think I'm actually wanted to just go because Because also this is related to what we just talked about. If you're going to talk a little bit about the, again, as we have done all along now, we have a stereotype, we are generalizing a little bit. But I think it's interesting, if you are a leader and you say you decide to hire a team with Brazilians or maybe you move there with your company. One of the things you mentioned is that typically a Brazilian is very family-oriented. They want to have that happy hour or that engagement with the others. They don't want to have that rigid system. I guess that's part of their motivation to even stay on with a job or something. We can move over to a little bit about the motivation and what a typically, again, someone coming from Brazil looks at when they look for a job or their career or the future because they have this... Is it important for them Should you be part of a family? I think you already mentioned it, but there's a lot of these companies that are very strict. How does motivation impact?
Andrea Fleischfresser
I would say it's the way we build trust with coaches, as you know, some coaches, let's say more task-oriented, like Americans or not for Europe. When I ask my clients, How do you know you can trust your team member or so on, an American, for example, would answer me if the person is reliable. If I'm talking with a Brazilian, for example, or even an American working with a Brazilian or things like that, they will answer me if I know him, her, or that. So it's very important if you are going to work in Brazil or with Braziliens, it's very important to take a time to get to know the people because this is where the trust will build. So one thing that Brazil and Italy or some others European countries have in common is that Lunchtime is very important, let's say. In Italian, we call the pausa pranzo. And in Brazil, let's say, it's very much like the lunch hour at work is very important because it's a time when team members, employees, or even managers with employees, all levels in some organizations, will go and hang out, and coach. They will talk about soccer, weekends, family events, and also, most important, about work.
Andrea Fleischfresser
This is where most of the work conversation happens. This is where even in high levels, like C levels, BP levels, this is where decisions are made in the lunch table, in the dinner table, et cetera. In some cultures, they will see this as wasting a lot of time. I remember one time an American client saying, 50 minutes break? What do you do in 50 minutes? You can eat in five minutes. But for a Brazilian or any relationship-based culture, this time spending together is a way for you to build trust, to get to know the person, and to get to know more about the work, making decisions about work, et cetera. So answering your question for a person who is going to work in Brazil or working with a Brazilian team member, just know that maybe you don't need to do the same, but knowing that this personal relation is important to build trust.
Paul Arnesen
And it's super interesting when you say about the lunch culture, because if you're listening to this, you go and listen to the German episode where I asked specifically about the German lunch culture. And in German lunch culture, it's a very no-no to speak about business during lunch. You only speak about business during work hours. At lunch, you speak about social things. You can imagine what would happen if Maybe a Brazilian starts working for a German company and they want to talk about career progression or something in the lunch. The German manager might say, be offended by this because they don't understand that this is important. That's, again, back to the awareness, getting to know that there is something that is important. But also, just to mention that someone who is Brazilian that goes to a German culture should know that maybe I should keep that conversation for after lunch. It goes both It goes both ways.
Andrea Fleischfresser
It goes both ways. That's why the awareness is important. I wish to say when I work with my clients in the cross culture, it's not that you need to change who you are, but knowing who is in front of you.
Paul Arnesen
Exactly. No, this is absolutely super fascinating to learn more about. I was thinking also something that I don't know if it's actually something that is well known, and I don't really know this. Just in general, if you think like someone like yourself, Because I read this in a book that time. I'm going to talk a little bit about the concept of time, because I know from living in, even in Italy, it's very similar in Portugal as well. Being on time is It's considered a little bit rude because the host, if you have an invitation, might be stressed because you show up on time. So it's better to show up a little bit late. I think the book I read, there was a chapter that said that kids, for this specific example, was taught this by their mom when they're young to respect someone by being a little bit late. So what's the validity of that? And obviously, you've been living many ways, so you know, and you're on time for this call, so you're definitely not that way. But what's the reality here?
Andrea Fleischfresser
It's very interesting this reality, because I even, as you mentioned, I've been abroad for 24 years. So sometimes when I am in Brazil, I have some, I don't say challenge time, but I remember one time I was in Brazil and I was going with my dad and my sister to a work appointment, was a lawyer appointment, some things like that. And there was traffic and we were late. I said, Hey, guys, we are late. We need to go. Let's It's okay. No, it's okay. Arriving there in the lawyer office, this lawyer asked, We start talking in a small talk conversation, my dad asking, How is the baby? Oh, and so and so, how it is? And she says, Do you want a coffee? So this was, I would say more than 50 minutes, 30 minutes. And we had another appointment afterwards in some other places. So we finished late. And when I called the other appointment, the person said, She's not even here. You are fine, the person that I need to meet. So long story short, yes, this is part of the Brazilian culture. I don't think that the parents, the culture, or how it happens if the parents say something, just this is how things happen.
Andrea Fleischfresser
Things take time because the relationship is very important. We spend a lot of time in this really high context idea that the things get more time to happen. Sometimes I find myself impatient in some situations. I'll share another personal story. I was in Brazil with my family, my dad's birthday. We went in a restaurant, just our family, like my brother, my sister-in-law, brother-in-law, like very family in that field. And it says, we ate and all very good. And I see the waiters just looking to the table. And I did mention to the the waiters to bring the bill. The waiters brought the bill to the table, and my sisters, my brother-in-law, like very mad with the waiters, What he's thinking about bringing the bill right now? And I was like, I asked for the bill. It was me. And they were, Why did you ask for the bill? We are here talking and having a good time. And I said, Because we ate and it's good. We can go now. And they were laughing because I also find myself in this situation. But it's just an idea that things get done. Everything gets done, work is done.
Andrea Fleischfresser
But the time is more...
Paul Arnesen
Fluid, I guess.
Andrea Fleischfresser
Yes, exactly.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah. And this is actually an interesting concept about time. That time that we... Time is linear in some cultures, and in other cultures, they are circular. I learned this the way of thinking that if someone, when I was living in Portugal, they said that if you have an appointment and on the way to the appointment, you meet someone you know, it's disrespectful to end that conversation abrupt because you just have to go to the next one. So you finish the conversation you have with someone, and the The party you're going to meet later will respect that anyways because it's not that stringent and rigid that time goes in circle and benefits everybody in the end.
Andrea Fleischfresser
Yeah. Same as Christine. I'm Like even in the workplace, if someone is late for a meeting, for example, in some culture, it will be very rude, especially in the workplace. But of course, this is not for everyone. But in some organizations or depending on your level in your organization, if you are late, they assume that you were busy doing something else. Exactly. So it's not that you were late because you don't care because you are a busy person. Yeah, exactly.
Paul Arnesen
I think also another, just to mention that an example I saw about the aspect of time is, say you are having a formal presentation presentation of something. In some culture, you might end it on the clock. You might say, I can't answer any questions now because my time is up, and then you leave. In a Brazilian culture, you would never do that. You will say any questions, and you spend that extra 5 to 10 minutes to help accommodate whatever is needed in the audience or for your spectators or in a meeting. It's not that strict. It creates a dynamic where I don't know how I can say it for me because I'm from a Nordic Scandinavian culture where time is very important, but I've lived abroad for many years, so I like that fluidity. I think it gets more things done in the end. So I think we can learn a little bit from this.
Andrea Fleischfresser
You just said a word that was very to the point to the Brazilian culture, which is trying to accommodate. I love that you mentioned this because it was a new concept, not a new concept, but a good way to... A great definition for a Brazilian culture or worker, etc. This idea of trying to accommodate is a strength. If you are trying to accommodate the meeting that we have or the or a coffee or this project, it's that this is a good thing. I appreciate that you are doing this because it feels like you are taking more effort to support me, to support the organization. So going back to what we said in the beginning of the work hours, the Brazil used to work work hours because this idea of trying to accommodate, helping others, helping the organization, always doing more than it's requested to trying to accommodate.
Paul Arnesen
No, it's definitely true. Can I ask you on that? I don't know if this is true. I also was told when I was in Brazil that if About the point of being accommodating. If you're invited to someone's place and they offer you something, they say a coffee and you decline it, what happens? Would you be very offended by that? That if you decline Or is it like, Okay, if you don't want it, it's fine because you made the effort of accommodating, to give something to do. And then if I say, No, thank you, I already had a coffee.
Andrea Fleischfresser
That's a great point. Usually, the first decline is being polite. So it's very common if you are hosting for a Brazilian, if you are inviting a Brazilian over, if the Brazilian say no for the first time, it's because he's being polite. I don't want to bother you. No, no, it's fine. No, no, no. Don't worry about it. But at the end, maybe the person would love to have that piece of cake or that coffee, that glass of wine, whatever is it. But for politeness, no, I'm okay. No, I'm good. So the recommendation always to ask ask it twice or even more, are you sure you don't want that little piece? It's very much very common here in United States, in the Southern part of United States, people are very much like this. Are you Sure you don't want this piece of cake, whatever, coffee. Usually, Brazilians will say no for politeness the first time.
Paul Arnesen
I think it's also a good way of It's very polite to say no first, and then instead just grabbing whatever you're offered. I think actually we are getting up to close to the hour here, which is interesting because I enjoy this conversation so much. I wanted to mention one thing more, ask you one more thing that is not specific to Brazil, but maybe in my experience, it's different than what I have experienced in some other countries such as Spain, Portugal, Italy. I think for cultures that are more from the north, they find this a little bit different, especially if you never experience this. That's touching the kissing, the intimacy among people and how it actually works, because I think that seeing it from the outside, I remember specifically that the first time I had a Norwegian friend visiting me in Portugal, and he met some of my friends, and it was the kissing on the cheeks. He got almost thrown back like this because he didn't want to do it. How do you How do you present this way to maybe if it is an expectation or non-expectation? Again, we go back to awareness. You don't do it if you're not sure.
Paul Arnesen
But maybe sometimes there can be some situations here, right?
Andrea Fleischfresser
Yeah, that's a great point because this is something that people don't realize how this could be a challenge in both ways. I would say even for Brazilians living here, I will go more in a perspective as a mom. My kids are teenagers, but I had some friends here, Brazil and France, living here in United States with little kids. And we, in the school systems in Brazil or even other cultures, I don't say just Brazil. The preschool, let's say for little kids, is very maternal, right? The teacher's home to the kids. And even the school system here in United States, or maybe the other cultures as well, it's more detached. Even the physical contact in these situations, like for little kids or school systems is also different. So people have hard time, even in the other way around. Yes, we are a culture that touch a lot. And the touching is sometimes seen as a misconception. I remember one time a client asked me, her husband was working in Brazil, and she was worried that the husband's secretary would have something else with the husband because she touched She hugs and kiss it. And of course, we cannot promise anything, but this is a way for us to care.
Andrea Fleischfresser
If we were here close to each other really in person, Paul, I would maybe give you a hug at the end of our conversation. Thank you for inviting me. Maybe now putting my hands on your arms just to assign to her like, Thank you. For some culture, this might seem as something else. So it's a very delicate topic in many levels. And this could be in friendship, the school system, work for sure. We've touched just for the coaches that they don't touch, just for you guys to know that we don't want to harm anyone. It's just a way of caring, that we care about you. I want to feel you. I want to show my caring for you. So it's not about having second thoughts or things like that. No.
Paul Arnesen
I think it's just, especially from someone from a my northern culture like myself. I saw this seminar, I think he's French-Canadian, but still more on the French side. He said when leaving an office, when he was working in, it took 20 minutes because he wants to say hi to everybody, give them a kiss, right? Now he lived in Norway, and it was like to just not even say hi and just leave because that's what is the courtesy there, right? It's just a very interesting, I think, especially if you're... This is more on the physical side. Obviously, if you work online and virtual, you don't really see that same thing. But I think there's a lot of people with a Brazilian background and around the world, and I think it's a good thing to have in mind. I think there's a lot of things we could have talked about also we haven't touched upon. But are there anything you wanted to say that you had prepared or anything you wanted to mention that we haven't talked about?
Andrea Fleischfresser
Yeah, I was thinking about that, actually, and I was looking in my notes. One of the things that when you ask for misconceptions or this understanding for people who've never been to Brazil. It's very interesting when people who've been to Brazil before for work or something, when they approach me, I really see that he really knows what is Brazil looks like. What I mean by that, there is no any issues. It's not that everyone needs to know everything about every places. But the misconception of Brazil is most like because we have beautiful beaches, it's a very tropical country with so many tourist attractions, and carnaval, etc. This is what would most people see. Oh, you are Brazilian, so you're done samba, so you live by the beach or things like that. And as you know, Paul, and many people here that are listening to us who work with Brazilias or went to Brazil for work or even for vacation, that Brazil have so many big cities like metropolit, is, like São Paulo is 18, 20 millions of people, Rio. My city, Curitiba, that is not well known worldwide for some people. It's not very tourist for some people, but we have two millions of people.
Andrea Fleischfresser
So We are a country of big, big cities, big buildings. And yes, we have some social-economical problems, as many third or countries or different kinds of the world. Even here in United States, we see a lot of socials and economical issues. But to still think about Brazil, it's a beautiful country with people that are very warm, very hard worker, very dedicated, and very willing to make connections and get to know and build good relationship with each other. This is what this Brazilian people looks like.
Paul Arnesen
Yeah. It is very true what you're saying. We often get a stereotypical view from media and what we are seeing just from maybe even just staying a week at a hotel. You don't really get the full picture of a culture. I think what you have pointed out today in this conversation has been very valuable for a lot of people. But not everybody is able to travel there, at least not to experience like I did, because I spent at least more or less three, four months there. I didn't learn everything because I was only in one city or no, so I didn't see. But I have friends from São Paulo, I have friends from Florianapolis, I have some people that is from the East Coast as well that I know about, so they tell me things. But if someone is coming from the... Or considering going there or even is considering, say, let's look into hiring someone from Brazil, are there any resources? Could be movies, could be books, could be TV series, anything that you can recommend that they should check out that can tell a little bit more about what you're talking about in terms of the culture?
Andrea Fleischfresser
I was looking for that I was doing my homework and I saw that on Netflix, there are many Brazilians movies, so that can show a little bit of the culture and the everyday life. Of Brazilians people. Of course, the well-known books and movies are those who talks about, let's say, the dark sides of Brazil, like city of God and many others, which, yes, is a Brazilian reality, but Brazil is much more of just that. So just being open-minded that this is not just one reality, But yes, this is what happened in the slums of Brazil. Or there was another one that is very good series called The Mechanism, which talks about the political crime, the corruption that happened in Brazil, and how the politics worked, and how the police is involved. So it's very interesting series, talk about the Brazilian corruption that was very well known a few years ago. Brazil is very known for music as well. We can find a very of music for country music, really rock, rock music. Of course, the samba and funk with Anita, she's became very well known. So Brazil is not just samba, There are so many Brazilians musicians like the Bossa Nova, Garota de Ipanema, the Girl from Ipanema.
Andrea Fleischfresser
This is Brazil. This is where our roots are. So not just samba, but you can see a variety of musicians, artists. Brazilians are very talented people. So there's so many to see So many to learn. And again, being a such a big country, we can find so many cultural difference inside of one country.
Paul Arnesen
I think it's interesting because I also know There's a lot of series and movies on Netflix, and they are based on specific parts of Brazil. And I think it's good if you are looking at going there to not only look at what is made out of the people in Rio, look at what is also about the other parts because they can be very, very different, just as an example. Because I found this series, at least fascinating and humorous. It was called the Ipanema Girls or something. It's like this. But it's a little bit of the history of I think it's the Bossa Nova. It was on Netflix. It's a Brazilian and probably a cheesy one, but it was just a fun work. But it's very Rio-centred, right? It's that culture. It just gives you one little snapshot of something. You don't Maybe. And movies is more... I like to ask this question because I'm a very visual learner, so I like to look at something and try to make some ideas, but it doesn't really tell the entire prospect. My recommendation is to go to Brazil, like you said, spend some time there, travel around, and meet the people.
Paul Arnesen
They are beautiful inside, outside.
Andrea Fleischfresser
One more thing, before we finish. Maybe people don't this. I don't know how was your experience? But many Braziliens people know well English. They speak English very well. Not everyone, of course. But English is part of... We have a movie, go to the movie theater. The movies are in English, different than in Europe. That is movies are there, both in Italian or French or any. So English English is part of our life. We listen a lot of American or British music and movies and things like that. So Brazil people know more English than many other countries, people from other countries. And Brazil has amazing hotels, restaurants, great food, seafood, meat, vegetarian, everything that you wanted, a lot of fruits, variety of everything. So good. So really recommend.
Paul Arnesen
Me too. I recommend everything you said there. I totally agree with you. The English is not the problem there, but it always helps to learn a little bit Portuguese. But in general, you can get around with English. I went to the cinema, I remember now when you said it in Rio de Janeiro, and it was an original language movie with the Portuguese subtitle. So that just helps so much. I don't want to say too much anything about Italy, but here they could have had a little bit more original language, but that's just the way it is also in France.
Andrea Fleischfresser
Exactly.
Paul Arnesen
That's just how it is. Okay, we have to end it because we have spent a long time, but it's been very interesting. What I want to say before we end, I want you to tell the listeners a little bit how they can reach you. If you want to connect with you, where should they go? Anything you want to Absolutely happy and great conversation.
Andrea Fleischfresser
Thank you. I really enjoy spending this time with you. If you want to know more about me, social media, LinkedIn, Instagram with my name, Andrea Flesch-Fresen. My business name is Destination You Coaching and Development. You can go on my website and also my social media and business account, destinationyoucoaching. Com. Happy to connect, to know more of our listeners. Thank you, Ergão, for having me.
Paul Arnesen
I will put the links to all the details and contact in the show notes of the episode, so you can find it there. That's it. Thank you very much again. Obrigado. We will talk soon.
Andrea Fleischfresser
Talk soon. Thank you. Obrigada, Paul. Ciao, ciao.
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